what's the logic in x dying for our sins? - Page 8

How is evolution logical? It is all random mistakes.

As we all know this thread does not entitle evolution. To briefly reason you question: the language of science is mathematics. Mathematics is logical.

Evolution is not logical.
How can it be logically believable when there is no logical explaination of how it all started.
We as humans can't conceive such things and I don't think we ever will.
Its just doesn't seem logically possible.
Humans can't understand not having a beginning.
God is the same.
Any origin.
Do you see my point of view?
I understand summit that the beliefs are based on logic but it no explaination of the "very" beginning.
*sigh* much <3

why does the creation of everything have to be logical? why can't it all just be random mistakes? is that to hard for you to swallow?

Zato: your utterly confused with evolution and the foundations of the 'beginning'. Evolutionary science is a branch of science. The study of Evolution states and explains the beginning of Life on earth (and of course the process). Life on Earth was not the beginning of matter/energy. Evolutionary science is logical.
Other branches of science help explain the origins of the beginning of the matter/energy/universe(s) or even before that. These sciences that encompass theories such as quantum physics and the string theory are logical. There are quite a few differing theories on the origins of our universe(s) that are still in the making.

And Zato, don't worry, I actually believe there was no beginning and there is no end. There are numerous theories that encompass that concept. Hope that helps to clarify your misunderstanding.

now back to the original topic.

In reply to the original question, we cannot apply our concept of logic to God because He is beyond our understanding. He cannot be proven or disproven so it stands that we must either accept Him on faith or merely refuse to believe in Him. but we can't disprove His existence nor prove it. saying that logic is more powerful than God or there could be no creator of the universe does not disprove God's existence because those are only two explanations. the question becomes one of faith so we may never know the reason why Jesus dying on the cross relieved us of our sins. it is not something that can be understood by our logic but is something that must be taken on faith. once again these questions will always and forever come down to a question of faith.

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why does the creation of everything have to be logical? why can't it all just be random mistakes? is that to hard for you to swallow?

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It doesn't have to be logical I guess but that is the only thing that makes sense to us.
How could it be all random mistakes... mistakes imply something and where did something come from?
Yes.. very hard for me to swallow.

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Zato: your utterly confused with evolution and the foundations of the 'beginning'. Evolutionary science is a branch of science. The study of Evolution states and explains the beginning of Life on earth (and of course the process). Life on Earth was not the beginning of matter/energy. Evolutionary science is logical.
Other branches of science help explain the origins of the beginning of the matter/energy/universe(s) or even before that. These sciences that encompass theories such as quantum physics and the string theory are logical. There are quite a few differing theories on the origins of our universe(s) that are still in the making.

And Zato, don't worry, I actually believe there was no beginning and there is no end. There are numerous theories that encompass that concept. Hope that helps to clarify your misunderstanding.

now back to the original topic.

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Thank you summit for your help. I understand what you mean. The only reason evolution is compared to religion is because it shows a opposing perspective on the come abouts of man?
Science has yet to explain how something comes from nothing. Or how there was always something. Or how there isn't anything.
Im loosing my mind over here. ^^

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In reply to the original question, we cannot apply our concept of logic to God because He is beyond our understanding. He cannot be proven or disproven so it stands that we must either accept Him on faith or merely refuse to believe in Him. but we can't disprove His existence nor prove it. saying that logic is more powerful than God or there could be no creator of the universe does not disprove God's existence because those are only two explanations. the question becomes one of faith so we may never know the reason why Jesus dying on the cross relieved us of our sins. it is not something that can be understood by our logic but is something that must be taken on faith. once again these questions will always and forever come down to a question of faith.

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I agree that it is all faith and that logic can not be applied to God for he is illogical himself. But I guess that is life... it goes on and on continuing to make lesser and lesser sense.
Much <3

well stated Decius. I would also like to mention the following:

Jesus dying for our sins cannot be logically supported as God's motives are illogical. If one believes that Jesus died for our sins this is an illogical choice.

So if God can make plans, think logically or exist, then logic is an arch-power that encompasses God and gives reason for god's existence which appears to refute the idea that God could be the creator of logic.

The God as first-cause argument is slightly undermined. If there is no logical reason why God exists then it is more likely that there is no logical reason why the Universe exists, or why Jesus died for our sins, and that instead of assuming that the organisational force is a 'god', it's simpler and more rational to assume that it is the universe itself.

I'll also note that; it appears that whether God exists for logical reasons or not a fundamental contradiction occurs. The only answer is that creator-gods cannot possibly exist. If God is placed "beyond logic" this is a contradiction. And if it is said that Human logic is incapable of realizing such metaphysical truths, then this also undermines any argument that can be made by one human to another, for the existence of god. Therefore Jesus dying for our sins is illogical.

I understand what Decius and Summit are saying... to a certain point... kind of hard to take in all at once but.. you both are assuming that God is either one or the other.
Logical or Illogical.
If all of Gods actions reside outside of logic then I agree that you statements would hold true but why couldn't a God imply action within and without logic?
Part of jesus dying is logical to us only that God says that he died for us so that we may enter Heaven. But the actual workings are Godly behind the picture which are illogical to us but none the less still possible.
Right?
Am I way off course?
Cause I mean... I am a little slow sometimes.

I said:

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Science has yet to explain how something comes from nothing. Or how there was always something. Or how there isn't anything.

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Decius:

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We did not come from nothing...

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Well.. I meant more as matter and energy as "we".
Like how could have anything got here at all......
The theory of God is Illogical...
Evolution doesn't say anything about it right?
What human understanding could there be that remains logical and explains the origin of any matter and energy.
aka: our reality or higher

GOD is illogical, Christ dying is illogical, the bible even states that these things will confound the the wise. Leaving the scriptures alone let's bring this into perspective. God being "THE CREATOR", "THE ALL KNOWING" that is illogical and impossible for the smartest finite to comprehend. Because we as finite have a begining and an end we start knowing nothing, as we start on our path to death we learn proper grammatical syntax, puncutaion, spelling, english, mathematical equations, and etc... These things are logical, these things are great inventions to help bring us all together. Yet sometimes they're used to hold others back and therefore seem illogical to the man who dosn't posses the same belifes as the man who holds them in high standards, a must have, the only way to live,.....

For a man to have found GOD is logical to him because that means to he no longer has to live the way he was living, he doesn't have to live under that guilt of i've been a bad boy and i'm going to everylasting darkness. That makes logical sense to

Perceptions and Personnas are illogical.

That's excatly my point. Your illogical for casting down what I belive so you can feel safe in your own world. If ignorant book knowledge worms like you would get out and open yourself to others than those that think like you it would make perfect sense that your existense is illogical i'm really do you think your gonna make a difference by you posting with what you reply, what's the reason of saying something if it's not gonna make a difference to the people who you're trying to reach how illogical and falable is that.

Decius,

you keep making my point easier and easier for you to understand. You're being illogical with an illogical person your replying logicaly to an illogical person. What's so stupid about being illogical when all it means is someone sees things totally different than you. you sound alot like hitler because you want people to think like you not the way they want.

i bet your grandparents onlong the line thought that it was it illogical for your parents to get married or your dad's friends or your moms friends thought it was illogical for them to have you. Perception is illogical do you get it now or is your book knowledge still your saviour.

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really do you think your gonna make a difference by you posting with what you reply, what's the reason of saying something if it's not gonna make a difference to the people who you're trying to reach how illogical and falable is that.

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so then why are you even posting at all?
your just trolling

If you want a comprehensive definition of "manufactured", I suggest you take classes in a Religious Studies department covering the rise of Christianity and its spread throughout the continents. Public university, of course. (If you catch on why. Haha.)

Real eye opener. Same with courses about Islam and Judaism.

It's not that there aren't examples, it's that those who are already blind refuse to seek the truth - and that could be easily fixed by simply taking a few college classes (and actually paying attention.)

I don't need to haul ass and find the information for you, I've got three other degrees I'm completing. If you are really objective and curious, you'd go out and try to prove yourself wrong to make sure your beliefs were correct.

That is the technique of a wise man.