OBVIOUS EXISTANCE OF GOD - Page 3

Studying the many stories of the Bible, I see no difference from these and the many mythic stories of other ancient religions. The Creation of the universe and Mankind, the idea of the Tree of Knowledge and the Fall of Man, the birth of War, of Man's violence against Man in the story of Cain and Abel, etc., etc. The bible is a book of great wisdom and knowledge, and much of it is told in parables. I think this literal belief in the stories of the Bible was a creation of religious zealots needing to maintain a strong hold on their congregations. Of course, all of this does not mean there is no God, no Creator, but I'm sure if God exists he is nothing like traditional and contemporary religions imagine him to be.

nice

symbolism is all the bible is though.......man is a tree, shooting up out of the earth....all things are connected to the earth.. so if a tree is stated, it is talking about a man........ it's just that explaining something needs to be done in the context that people will understand and start thinking.......that's why so many are lost in the bible....because the wisdom and freedom is not ingrained in them...so understanding won't come......

to him i called vindictive-


i can only say, to have pure faith alone and to undoubtedly prove your love for God(assuming he exists)-You must have the highest form of faith...which is that with no physical evidence.


If God, again i say, is understood to be of another form-spiritual*, then he could not be pin-pointed with a map created by the human brain.


So-keeping this in mind..and referring back to text in the bible,(adam and eve) you can see a scenerio where faith alone is most definitaley required to do Gods will.

Adam is not alive today- you(and many others) will not truly take this symbolic reference to heart...because it is not a valid log entry of some sort.

Again-if we had physical evidence of Gods existence, it would most certainly sway our choices. -and God could not weed out the bad from the good.-

(assuming Gods will is most just, and universal Right and Wrong exist)- these are the reasons why there isnt, and cannot be any physical evidence of his existence. It states it in the bible.

but again..this is only evidence sufficient for the most faithful.(dont go rerouting this argument.)^this is my point.

"i can only say, to have pure faith alone and to undoubtedly prove your love for God(assuming he exists)-You must have the highest form of faith...which is that with no physical evidence."

Assumptive nonsense. Then burn your bible, for your evidence is clouding your faith.

"If God, again i say, is understood to be of another form-spiritual*, then he could not be pin-pointed with a map created by the human brain."

Yet you know all about him, makes sense to me.

"So-keeping this in mind..and referring back to text in the bible,(adam and eve) you can see a scenerio where faith alone is most definitaley required to do Gods will."

What are you refering to, a point in the story or faith in the story itself?

"Adam is not alive today- you(and many others) will not truly take this symbolic reference to heart...because it is not a valid log entry of some sort."

Symbolic reference or not, God even tells his faithful to be skeptical and wary of false prophets and bullshit. I have far more faith in God's own directive of skepticism than in any text.

The only point I've noticed to make any sense or have any relevance from any religion is the golden rule, which is independant of religion.

And quite frankly, if you want to call someone vindictive, it should be the God represented in the Bible.

And since I've taken the time to look, I can reiterate a theme that is being said here and there, but is falling on deaf ears and blinded eyes, blinded by blind faith. And that is that all major religions including Christianity are nothing more than recycled pagan mythology. A theme of which there IS scores of evidence.

"Again-if we had physical evidence of Gods existence, it would most certainly sway our choices. -and God could not weed out the bad from the good.- "

Uh huh, firstly, I was taught not to play games with people, this is how I see this whole charade, personal opinion to be sure.

Secondly, "-and God could not weed out the bad from the good.- "

God could not? Odd how selective God's abilities are when its suits a claimer's purpose.

"It states it in the bible."

Oh, shit, my bad, what was I thinking? Then it must be true with no reason for thinking for one's self, thanks for straightening that out.

"but again..this is only evidence sufficient for the most faithful.(dont go rerouting this argument.)^this is my point.

And where then would you be in your uber faithfulness had not the bible been thrust upon you?

.

"Assumptive nonsense. Then burn your bible, for your evidence is clouding your faith."


If this is not physical/sufficient evidence, how can it cloud my faith?



"Yet you know all about him, makes sense to me."


It obvious(that if he exists) that we would not know...because there is no evidence sufficient enough to support his existence. Which, although doesnt prove his existence, doesnt prove his non-existence. Especially if he is renowned as a being, not limited by the processes of the human brain.(i.e... logic and reason.)


"What are you refering to, a point in the story or faith in the story itself?"


if you would like an example of a scenerio.-being nothing more than symbolic...look at adam and eve.<---this was my point


"Symbolic reference or not, God even tells his faithful to be skeptical and wary of false prophets and bullshit. I have far more faith in God's own directive of skepticism than in any text."


well, if you have faith in Gods own directive of skepticism...you would have to assume he exists. and if you believe skepticism is of God's directive, then you would see my point.


"Uh huh, firstly, I was taught not to play games with people, this is how I see this whole charade, personal opinion to be sure."


again, if you do not believe in universal Right and Wrong or higher power, evidentially, you will follow your own set standard and assume everyone else does the same.



"God could not? Odd how selective God's abilities are when its suits a claimer's purpose."


Well, evidence enough for this..would be our ability to choose. If we didnt have choice or free will, we couldnt conciously have love for God. This is why if we were directed or maintained...and limited in choice.. we could not have real love or respect...but imposed fear or respect.

..again, look at adam and eve.


"Oh, shit, my bad, what was I thinking? Then it must be true with no reason for thinking for one's self, thanks for straightening that out."


it is stated in the bible, but even as this does not apply to you(the bible and its symbolic references)..its obvious that our ability to choose is our own. (given the fact that everyone has the ability to govern themselves)



"And where then would you be in your uber faithfulness had not the bible been thrust upon you?"


as i understand the bible to be symbolic, i do not take it to heart. my chosen faith in God has nothing to do with my upbringing. If it did..it would most certainly be blind faith...and this i do not have.


for i understand why i have faith.

I do believe in god but did the 10 commandments come straight from god (jesus)? I honestly do not know.. can anyone tell me? If they did then I will have to say that there is a universal right and wrong.

Theres no evidence...

but although there is no proof, i know them to be standards of goodwill-and common knowledge determinors of right and wrong in the eyes of all.

I have one thing to say......If you believe that Jesus is God.. the supreme God...the ONE....then you have nothing else to search for and your life should be easy flowing...you should have understanding beyond all knowledge....there WOULD be a definite right and wrong....and you would be on the winning side and be looking down on everybody else in this world..... and once you start looking down on other people, you have just placed yourself in the same position that God(jesus) is in.. looking down on people from your higher place......

and while you believe in God(jesus)...I appreciate and treat everybody like they are God manifest in the body of man... I look at everbody as me and understand life as though it came from my hands.......I feel free as a bird not holding unto any belief yet having the ability to believe what I may and accept what is unknown to me.....I see everybody eye to eye therefore being equal with even the lowest of foes..... If that's not what your God (jesus) did and said then call me queen elizabeth and strap me to some train tracks and cause a head on collision with 2 bullet trains collision point at my belly button...

and the 10 commandments are a result of natural law..... not to be followed, but to be lived....if you try to follow the law you'll always slip at some point....but it you live it then you're choices will always be straight..... and only the morality in the 10 commandments is what keeps people acting right....not the do's and the don'ts....

"If this is not physical/sufficient evidence, how can it cloud my faith?"

This depends on how much credibility you attribute to it. What legitimacy I accredit it does not affect your beliefs.

"It obvious(that if he exists) that we would not know...because there is no evidence sufficient enough to support his existence. Which, although doesnt prove his existence, doesnt prove his non-existence. Especially if he is renowned as a being, not limited by the processes of the human brain.(i.e... logic and reason.)"

And therefore no obvious existance of God.

Existance is obvious, God is not. At least not the God of the Bible.

Which prompts me to ask: when people say that they believe in God and or God is obvious, what is God to them?

"well, if you have faith in Gods own directive of skepticism...you would have to assume he exists. and if you believe skepticism is of God's directive, then you would see my point."

But I don't, I merely speak in terms of bible claims that the religious can relate to, I believe in critical thinking and skepticism, God happened to mention that in the bible, but my point was that even God told people to be skeptical and not blind. Which hopefully reminds them to do so, which many do, but just not as much in the case of the Bible, which is unfortunate in my opinion.

I don't mean to make assumptions of your own beliefs, for I have no way of knowing and untill I do my statements are often generalized for the consumption of others and to promote clarification.

Ekimup, given your reference to the Bible as symbolic, I am curious as to what you personally have faith in.

""God could not? Odd how selective God's abilities are when its suits a claimer's purpose."

Well, evidence enough for this..would be our ability to choose. If we didnt have choice or free will, we couldnt conciously have love for God. This is why if we were directed or maintained...and limited in choice.. we could not have real love or respect...but imposed fear or respect.

..again, look at adam and eve."

Well, evidence enough for this..

Evidence enough for what exactly, I was refering to your mentioning of his inability to know who is "good or bad", even Santa Claus can do that, but God has a hard time? Or anything that a claimed omnipotent God is said to be unable to do, thats a contradiction.

" If we didnt have choice or free will, we couldnt conciously have love for God."

A God we can't even know for sure exists, let alone whether it demands, needs, or whatever your point was about our love of it.

"This is why if we were directed or maintained...and limited in choice.. we could not have real love or respect...but imposed fear or respect."

??? ???

Thats the whole point of religion, law, parenting, shit, even guidance councelors. Hell is a tool of fear, like Jail, military deterance etc.

How is anyone supposed to love or respect something they don't even know exists to begin with. We know people and nature exist, we love fear and respect them to varying degrees. Fantastical and often nonsensical stories told by fanatical people who demand others believe and obey them do not merit the same love fear and respect.

""Oh, shit, my bad, what was I thinking? Then it must be true with no reason for thinking for one's self, thanks for straightening that out."


it is stated in the bible, but even as this does not apply to you(the bible and its symbolic references)..its obvious that our ability to choose is our own. (given the fact that everyone has the ability to govern themselves)"

What does that have to do with questioning the Bible? And what was your point?

And our ability to govern ourselves only goes so far, we can't fully control our emotions, and our emotions highly influence us, to the point where our emotions either themselves can control a person or trigger a instinctual atuo pilot that in fact causes us to react, let alone nurture part of this nature/nurture debate that has been ongoing and unsolved for as long as our existance by minds far greater than ours. We can't even govern ourselves with physically imposed governments, I don't see where you get such assurance in making such a claim.

"as i understand the bible to be symbolic, i do not take it to heart. my chosen faith in God has nothing to do with my upbringing. If it did..it would most certainly be blind faith...and this i do not have.


for i understand why i have faith."

Yes, do tell.

"This depends on how much credibility you attribute to it. What legitimacy I accredit it does not affect your beliefs."

i credit it as symbolism- and the fact that it exists with no label of true fiction...i an accredit some faith in its overall theme.


"And therefore no obvious existance of God"

..exactly.


"Which prompts me to ask: when people say that they believe in God and or God is obvious, what is God to them?"


well, i couldnt explain this to you..for i have no evidence other than personal first hand accounts. But that is the question:what is God to them?

"God happened to mention that in the bible, but my point was that even God told people to be skeptical and not blind. Which hopefully reminds them to do so, which many do, but just not as much in the case of the Bible, which is unfortunate in my opinion."


Well, assuming God exists-seen as how you do not have sufficient evidence and dont understand or know, you cannot take or use this argument. Apparently, he does mention this..but it is for the faithful to understand and apply. Not for someone like you who is against scripture as evidential support.

You do see our ability to choose as hard evidence, to support why God would'nt give physical or substantial evidence of his existence-if in fact he did exist?
If no..i can clarify again. I dont know that if God is certain of knowing/telling who is trully "bad" or "good". But the fact that we can choose, leaves it up to something that perhaps only god could decipher. The infinites to our responses. Up or down, left or right. But i believe in its infinites, and with us being creations(assuming once again), that there would be no purpose for God to allow us to thrive so long, without evidence enough to support his existence within our processes of logic and reasoning, if choice could be widdled down to a single conclusion.-i dont believe that to be choice.

"Thats the whole point of religion, law, parenting, shit, even guidance councelors. Hell is a tool of fear, like Jail, military deterance etc.

How is anyone supposed to love or respect something they don't even know exists to begin with."


thats my point. I believe the truth within skepticism..is an enveloped fear. This is crap.. fear God?psht. If anything, those truly in accord with his will, will respect and love him, not fear him. (this is why i dont take the bible literally because its so vindictive-and was written by many "profits" interpretations of God,showing him as both extremely merciful, and yet seemingly over-powering in controlling our freewill.

If God doesnt exist, why do you get so pissed at the fact that some believe him to? you assume their stupid and blind..searching for a way out..or filled with fear dying for an answer. God does not demand faith, or belief. If you truly wish to know why i have an overwhelming faith, i can only give my first-hand accounts. Which matter nothing, and would appear to lie in the opinion of my interpretations. When i say they mean nothing, they mean nothing to you. Especially when you uphold empirical method over any other.

"what does that have to do with questioning the Bible? And what was your point?"


please read.....what i write. I do the same for you^



My point was that choice is the reason we cannot have sufficient evidence to Prove his existence- especially a being much greater than ourselves who transcends empirical method. So thus, you choose to believe everything lies in opinion, and if this is true-then it is obvious we choose. Meaning choice does exist, and acts as evidence on Gods behalf. Sufficient enough for our brain..maybe not..but evidence non the less.


"we can't even govern ourselves with physically imposed governments, I don't see where you get such assurance in making such a claim."


..your only emphasizing choice for me. Your making my points...because some cant discipline themselves, and choose to act only in their own accord-we must impose some kind of physical law to prevent these people from imposing on others freewill. This is mainly where the Golden Rule was derived.


Maybe we cant control our emotions, but we can choose how we act on them, or express them. So everything works toward our final consent.(at least for us) Whether universally Right or Wrong.


I dont think i'll share my faith with you-but i can say i do have it. My accounts are not sufficient evidence, and it seems this is what you want. I will tell you right off the bat- There is no sufficient evidence. I can give you a reason as to maybe, why there is no sufficient evidence...but anything beyond that is beyond me.

..and also beyond all. including you

"Well, assuming God exists-seen as how you do not have sufficient evidence and dont understand or know, you cannot take or use this argument."

What are you saying I don't know or understand.

"Apparently, he does mention this..but it is for the faithful to understand and apply. Not for someone like you who is against scripture as evidential support."

Boy are you wrong. In more ways than one. One being that I can understand, apply, critique, and scrutinize anything I like, and because of my past I may know more about faith and the faithful than you have any idea, but keep making an assumptive ass of yourself if you like. And besides that, I can specifically challenge or promote any claims fantastical events that anyone is claiming others must believe in order to avoid eternal torture and or damnation, or just general unpleasantries.

Another way you are wrong is about my opinion of scripture as evidence, but your on a roll so I'm not surprised. Scripture is as much evidence as eye witness or first, second, third hand etc. information. Second hand and beyond becomes hearsay, and if I'm not mistaken, most if not all of the bible is beyond first hand eye witness testimony. And such testimony (testament) is as subject to such scrutiny as any other. Including factors of bias, motive and intent, and all the myriad of factors I do and don't know.

Again, people can believe what they want, however, when they claim something a reality, it becomes information subjectable to my interpretation and investigation.

"You do see our ability to choose as hard evidence, to support why God would'nt give physical or substantial evidence of his existence-if in fact he did exist?"

Not at all, that is simply speculation on your part.

"thats my point. I believe the truth within skepticism..is an enveloped fear."

If skepticism is a loaded word, critical thinking applies as well, not believing everything you read, something I've been told many times. As for fear, it is a natural survival instinct and is not a derogatory term, the Bible and religion teach of fearing God, not me.

"If anything, those truly in accord with his will, will respect and love him, not fear him. "

But for this to even be possibly one must know who "HE" is and what "HIS" will is. Which is what the bible and religion claims to do which is why I question its validity as it even says to do.

"If God doesnt exist, why do you get so pissed at the fact that some believe him to?"

Ah but I don't, I argued ones point that God's existance was obvious, I challenge those who claim the Bible to be completely factual, and I challenge those who make contradictory statements of the God they believe in, as well as those who proclaim any specific religions interpretation of God being the only or true God. And then ask how and why they think that.

"you assume their stupid and blind..searching for a way out..or filled with fear dying for an answer. God does not demand faith, or belief. If you truly wish to know why i have an overwhelming faith, i can only give my first-hand accounts. Which matter nothing, and would appear to lie in the opinion of my interpretations. When i say they mean nothing, they mean nothing to you. Especially when you uphold empirical method over any other."

Oh dear, I called no one stupid, I did call blindly faithful people blindly faithful, and if that is overly assumptive of me, I'm terribly sorry.

"..searching for a way out..or filled with fear dying for an answer."

I never said that in these posts, but I do believe it highly likely. Its exactly what you were saying about skepticism, hypocricy is indeed a common factor in this discussion so I appreciate you bringing it up.

"God does not demand faith, or belief."

You would of course be speaking of your interpretation of God, because many others believe that is the only reason we exist, for us to believe in and worship God.

As for your first hand experiences and your ever continuing assault of hypocritical assumptiveness on my opinions and beliefs, I would love to hear your accounts, and I would not skoff at them as you so think, because I have a strong head does not mean I am without compassion and understanding, if you knew me you would understand, however, I feel this an appropriate point to remind you that I only argue what people claim to be true that they DON'T have personal accounts of, I will question a persons account but only to obtain information and offer perspective.

"Especially when you uphold empirical method over any other."

Are you going for an assumption award or what? Not to mention, again, that the bible is supposedly a collection of empirically gathered knowledge by those claiming the bible not metaphorical.

""what does that have to do with questioning the Bible? And what was your point?"


please read.....what i write. I do the same for you^"

Excuse me? My replies have been fairly thurough, as have yours, possible because I'm guessing we both read these posts, and I was asking honest questions, your paragraph I question was in response to one of my own but had nothing to do with my point of questioning the Bible.

"My point was that choice is the reason we cannot have sufficient evidence to Prove his existence- especially a being much greater than ourselves who transcends empirical method. So thus, you choose to believe everything lies in opinion, and if this is true-then it is obvious we choose. Meaning choice does exist, and acts as evidence on Gods behalf. Sufficient enough for our brain..maybe not..but evidence non the less."

Choice is not evidence of God, that makes no sense, the only way it even fits in context is by religious claims of a selectively omnipotent God.

"..your only emphasizing choice for me. Your making my points...because some cant discipline themselves, and choose to act only in their own accord-we must impose some kind of physical law to prevent these people from imposing on others freewill. This is mainly where the Golden Rule was derived."

So are you assuming that people are born able to discipline themselves to societies standards, I know a lot of parents, including myself, who would disargree with such a statement.

And free will is always imposed and influenced upon by all outside and inner forces, and especially by social contructs.

I take it you don't think every act is selfish by default, all actions are for either survival and or pleasure in the broadest of terms, survival includes helping others or restricting one's self from certain activities for the sake of self and or social standing, to the survival of the colony or species, or because it feels or is considered right or good, regardless of whether it truly is or not.

Not to mention, if balance is necessary then all rights and wrongs are both necessary and then by default are good. But balance isn't what is being discussed.

I never said choice does not exist, I said complete control over self does not exist.

"Maybe we cant control our emotions, but we can choose how we act on them, or express them. So everything works toward our final consent.(at least for us) Whether universally Right or Wrong."

This is a baseless claim that flies in the face of tons of evidence against it. Your simplified version of man's behaviors and abilities let alone the affect of all outside and even inner influence (especially any deception or misunderstanding) is both niave and unsurprisingly assumptive.

Just going off of religious points, posession.

"I dont think i'll share my faith with you-but i can say i do have it. My accounts are not sufficient evidence, and it seems this is what you want."

Well, there's the twist that wins you the assumption award, you assumed the same thing twice in one post, congratulations .

Hopefully I cleared that up earlier but I'll reiterate by saying I desire knowledge, and any personal experiences no matter how bizarre are of great interest to me, far more than a dusty old text of questionable origin, not that it isn't important in my quest for knowledge, its just that first hand accounts are more important to me.

Please don't assume that I am against people because they, like myself, are prone to say silly things which I call them on, or rational things which I question because perhaps I don't understand or lack information on.

I respect and associate with people who want and promote love and peace, understanding and knowledge, but simply question those with claims beyond their possible knowledge, so as to learn not to just argue over.

"I can give you a reason as to maybe, why there is no sufficient evidence...but anything beyond that is beyond me.

..and also beyond all. including you"

I agree and appreciate the conversations, or else would not have continued them.

Sorry for the monster post, kinda tired.

"One being that I can understand, apply, critique, and scrutinize anything I like, and because of my past I may know more about faith and the faithful than you have any idea, but keep making an assumptive ass of yourself if you like."

...leftwood- it you assume he exists as a being for you to apply,critique,scrutinize...then you need not evidence of his existence.


otherwise-if you have no firm belief in God, you cannot use his "scripture" against his existence..because if in fact it is his scripture, is shows him to exist.


Leftwood-as of now..your a very idiotic person.
you may continue with the name calling.

but if you care to edit your post, i may continue reading it openly. But if you decide to leave the uneeded remarks driven by agression..psht, i have no need to heed the things you say.


Choice also is not an assumption, its true. You choose even your influences, what deserves respect.(to you). Even if you chose and influence that was misrepresented..it still was a choice. and how you apply this knowledge is up to you.

this is all i could scam over..let me know if you decide to edit your post.

My point has already been made abundately clear.

"...leftwood- it you assume he exists as a being for you to apply,critique,scrutinize...then you need not evidence of his existence."

No shit, I said that. Anyone can scrutinize even a concept.

"otherwise-if you have no firm belief in God, you cannot use his "scripture" against his existence..because if in fact it is his scripture, is shows him to exist."

Nonsense.

"Leftwood-as of now..your a very idiotic person.
you may continue with the name calling."

After calling me a name I'll take your advice to heart, I called you an assumptive ass for three reasons, 1. As I pointed out, you have been making an ass load of assumptions and it was getting tiresome, 2. There is a saying that if you assume, you make an ass out of U and ME, so in this since I was even calling myself an ass, 3. Because you deserved it.

I'm sorry if you can't take criticism, or think that me calling you an ass is, as I said we all act at times including myself (but maybe you think your perfect, which if so I would gladly call you an ass again) so detremental. But if you don't see the respect implied in my bothering to do so then you are blinded by your defensiveness and can do as you like, stay ignorant if you please, I can force you to do nothing. But I will point out when people are compulsively assumptive and I'll probably call them an ass while doing it, most people can handle it, some are more fragile. Get a sense of humor and grow up a little. I meant no malicious harm and shall reiterate, I too act the ass, and appreciate when people point it out, as you attempted when taking the "righteous" path of calling me an idiot, I'll agree that I didn't have to call you an ass, however, I disagree that you weren't being one and so defend my statement.

Cop out if you like. I'll take a win by submission.

"My point has already been made abundately clear."

Oh, and what would your point be?

"Choice also is not an assumption, its true."

Again, again, we all have choice, but we don't have total control over actions.

"You choose even your influences, what deserves respect.(to you)."

Influence is not just that which deserves respect in your eyes, all things influence all things, to a degree hard to fathom for infinity comes into play. There may be some influences you choose to associate yourself and your respect with, but that doesn't mean things you don't like or disrespect don't influence you. But I'm even talking about weather, food, chemical imbalance, all things.