Excerp: America is not a Christian Nation - Page 3

I get the impression from your post that IF the Bible said "Kill thy neighbor" then you wouldn't believe in the Bible anymore. Is that correct?

Well if the Bible contained flat out contradictions then its credibility would be in question.

I sense a trap coming...?

lol

I won't get into a debate about whether or not the Bible has contradictions. But if *if* the Bible consistently stated that its good to do something you consider evil. Would you believe in that Bible?

According to Mr. Franklin

quote:

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"A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law"--a comment we should carefully consider at this turning point in the history of our Republic.

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From "Our Godless Constitution" found recently in "The Nation"

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050221&c=2&s=allen

Excellent

It's a lot like the original article - I've said this elsewhere - Lets allow a moment of silence in our public schools - it's not going to hurt anything - that's not what separation of church and state is about. It's about rule of law and rule of religion. Rule of religion should be voluntary and not rule of law. No law should govern religion, likewise, no religion should govern law.

There was a time when we allowed prayer in school but understood religion obedience as a voluntary sacrament. But now, we don't allow prayer in school, but by golly the laws of God will be the law of the land. We've disguised it as morality. We need to seriously head the warnings of our fore fathers.

"But if *if* the Bible consistently stated that its good to do something you consider evil. Would you believe in that Bible?"

No! Of course what I believe is evil comes from the Bible so like I said it would have to be flat out contradicting itself.

I'm confused.

If the Bible flat out contradicted itself (calls one thing good and later calls it evil) then I would have a hard time believing it was inspired by God.

I mean, if one of its morals was different and that position was consistently held throughout the Bible. For example, instead of "Love thy neighbor" there might be "Love thy neighbor unless he is gay" which matches up with Leviticus' rambling.

Since you don't understand the point of Levitical law then I will ignore your impugning attack.

But yes if one of its teachings contradicted another teaching then its credibility would be challengeable.

Levitical law - whatever it is, should not be the law of the land, but the law of a church of followers who voluntarily agree to abide by such law. The law should not outlaw such church, and such church should not expect such law to be inforced upon its community.
This is seperation of church and state.

Paul, in his epistles explain the importance of voluntary obedience, only then is it worthy of reward.

Hi folks, the following are opinions.

The question of what the creators of this great nation intended is moot. We have in place founding documents, which state unequivocally the secular nature the US was to take. I invite those with opposing views to post excerpts of the Constitution that state unequivocally otherwise. In a democracy, the government must take a totally secular stance, to the point of being totally generic concerning race, gender, AND religion. Used in this manner, 'secular' refers to the acceptance of all religions on an equal footing, while 'atheist' refutes the very existence of any higher powers.

While I do not intentionally attack individuals, one of the concerns I have seen with Christianity in whole, is their apparent refusal to accept any other religion, considering the rest of us all to be evil, in league with their Satan, and so on. The institution of Christianity has not been a 'good neighbor' in the religious community. This ideology has crept into the political arena, resulting in the current clash over secularism.

One of the outstanding things about the US is that if you do not like or agree with something, then do not use it, buy it, watch it, or read it. But when one particular group of oour diverse ethnic and religious cultures attempts to subordinate the others and gain control, then it is time to stand up, take notice, and take steps to ensure equality for everyone. And lets face it, this is exactly what the extreme religious conservatives are trying to do, and that is force their belief structure to the fore, to the detriment of all.

*end of rant*

TheIrishPagan:

Four years ago I probebly would have dissagreed with you, thinking, what harm can they do, let them be. But now I clearly see what harm they can do, and it's almost frightening.

I used to understand what they were thinking, but it has been so long ago I can't even comprehend it.

I used to not be afraid to go to their churches, but now avoid them and their vexing ideas. Unfortunately, many of them are good people, I just don't want to be no part of them.

"one of the concerns I have seen with Christianity in whole, is their apparent refusal to accept any other religion,"

Why should they accept any other religion? Why should Muslims or Wiccans or Hindus? If they truly believe they are on the path to Heaven and that it is the only path why should they embrace paths leading away from Heaven?

"considering the rest of us all to be evil, in league with their Satan, and so on."

I wont speak for Christians but I will speak on behalf of Christianity and it teaches that all of us are evil, which is why we need Chris's perfectly good redemption.

"The institution of Christianity has not been a 'good neighbor'

Depends upon the context. What other nation besides Christian America has had so many diverse religious groups living peacefully as good neighbors?

As opposed to Christian Europe? Christian Spain? Even "Christian America" has spent a lot of its time exterminating natives.

I hate how all our discussions end up degenerating into making long lists of why christianity has done evil things or good things.

'Why should they accept any other religion? Why should Muslims or Wiccans or Hindus? If they truly believe they are on the path to Heaven and that it is the only path why should they embrace paths leading away from Heaven?'

To the best of my knowledge, each and every single religion on the planet includes a 'heaven' of one type or another in it's structure, or at least some kind of reward that can be achieved for exemplifying the qualities most admired in that culture. Even Atheists have a socially motivated moral code. In your reply, you have either twisted the meaning of 'accept', or perhaps I have not made myself clear. Perhaps 'respect' would be more appropriate. Respect, understanding, even mere tolerance would be preferable to the persecutions non-Judeo-Christian religions face in America today. Respect and acceptance of another's belief structure, does not in any way imply that a person does not hold fast to their own beliefs, nor does it even endorse another religion. One must remember that there are many versions of 'heaven' and many paths to acquire entrance. To deny or deride the existence of alternant views and religions, instigated by anyone of any faith, is in my personal opinion arrogant and selfish.
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'I wont speak for Christians but I will speak on behalf of Christianity and it teaches that all of us are evil, which is why we need Christ's perfectly good redemption.'

This is one of the main differences in theology, I believe. Christianity is a wonderful, loving religion, except when it is used to 'lash' non-Christians. Most people of the world today know that there can be an underlying 'evilness' that human being strive to over come, a selfish antisocial motivation to quench the fires of perceived, and natural, needs, wants, and perceptions. Each religion has it's own series of checks and balances to help define what that culture considers 'evil', and to assist those in that community to act in ways socially and religiously acceptable and responsible in that society. Christianity utilizes the Christ to achieve that purpose.
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'Depends upon the context. What other nation besides Christian America has had so many diverse religious groups living peacefully as good neighbors?'

Oh, lets see, India, Japan, China, England, Italy, South America, Canada, Russia...
Need I go on? I assume you are speaking contemporarily. Even here in the States, there are disturbingly prevalent examples of persecution and violence, by Christians, towards others who do not follow that faith. From pagan, Wiccan, Muslim, and other groups being denied access to parks and buildings for worship practices when Christians are freely allowed, to verbal abuse in public, education, and work environments, to violence among our children in schools merely for having a different religion. Do a search on the Internet for violence or hate against pagans and Wiccans in the US by Christians, then do a search for the opposite; it will defiantly be an eye opener. The difference is that the pagan and Wiccan communities are reacting, defending our stance in legal and free speech forums, where the Fundies are actively persecuting people of other religions. The Fundamental Christian element is the instigator, the 'big bully' in the schoolyards of the religious community.
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Xris, I in no way attack Christianity as a religion. As I said, it is a wonderful religion when a few members of that faith aren't busy trying to convert the world. I will defend as strongly your right to worship, as you feel fit, as I will defend mine tooth and nail, but only in an atmosphere of equality, understanding, and respect. The Judeo-Christian God and his Son are not the only Gods of this world, and in my opinion, as soon as that minority in the Christian and Islamic faiths cease their 'Fundie Manifesto', the world will be a much better place. I intend only to provoke thought, to further the ideals of mutual understanding and respect.

It has been years since I read the Bible, but I seem to recall a passage relating to the evils of 'blind faith', if someone who is more intimately familiar with the scriptures would be so kind as to supply the referent passages.