Is There Really Such A Thing As A Conservative? - Page 3

"Al Qaeda was a small operation without a large following or a real popular cause - when we went to war. We gave them a popular cause and a large following, as they've almost doubled in size. "

Did you see the polls before 9/11 - one said that 9 out 10 Moroccan teen boys had a picture of Osama on their wall (Pew I believe). Remember the cheering crowds through the Muslim world when 9/11 happened? Yes Al Qaeda was and has been a popular cause. BUT what has changed? Now we have thousands of Muslims marching in the streets of Lebanon protesting their lack of democracy - now we have Palestinians upset over a suicide-bomb attack and the PLO saying they will bring the despicable terrorists to justice - now we have Libya disarming itself without being forced - now we have the Saudi Royals allowing elections for the first time AND agreeing that in the next election women will be allowed to vote because as one of their Princes said "women are better tempered" - now we have Egypt backtracking on their dictatorial system and agreeing to allow a real presidential election with multiple different party candidates. Why are all these Arab dictators backtracking and instigating reform? Because they have read the tea leaves and know that if they don't their people will revolt. Why are the people all of the sudden willing to revolt? Because they saw on Arab tv millions of Afghans, Palestinians and Iraqis deciding their own fate through democratic means.

Like Bush said - democracy is not merely a western value but is universal. Bush got it right - millions of Muslims want the right to participate in their system and decide their own destinies. We are witnessing the makings of a real revolution in the Middle East as millions of Arab hearts are being freed from centuries of tyranny and the great losers in the long run will be Al Qaeda and Muslim dictators.

"War should always be avoided at all cost. "

Why? Dont you realize such thinking led to WWII? Look at how many millions died because of such a philosophy!

"ur majors mean nothing to me"

Would you hire a plumber who had no training or background in plumbing? Would you hire a lawyer that had never attended law school? Look - ones education is important - look at DT - he and I often disagree but it is obvious that he is a political science and history student - it is obvious that his studies have affected him.

No, like I said earlier, I did not watch that video - I have no desire at this time to watch some propaganda film - maybe later though.

"You sound more like a perot then a studied person who has majors"

Ross Perot? I lost my texan accent many years ago! lmao But I can do a mean impression of him My Clinton and Gore are better though. lol

"How much must we take from the poor and needy to pay for the war machine before we decide our needy are too needy? How rich must our weapons manufacturers become before we decide that the rest of the capitalized world also deserves our dollars? How much non biodegradable toxins have to be released before we decide it is to much? How many have to die before we realize to many have died? Would it then be to late to say OOPS!."

Take from the poor? Whatcha mean? Are you saying that the point of the war is to make weapon manufactures rich? How many Americans have to die at the hand of our enemies before you wake up and smell the cyclosarin?

"We were told that we had to win that one also, or else communism would sweep across the whole world. But it didn't"

No it didn't thanks to our actions throughout the world!

"We claimed to be helping make them free also. Are you free if you are hungry? Are you free if you are poisoned, etc, etc. "

Are you saying the reason the Vietnamese and N Koreans were and are starving is America's fault?

"You did say you'd join the peace process if they started the draft."

No I said I would protest any draft legislation.

"As for me, March 19th is a nation wide peace ralley against the Iraq war. It will even be held in Oklahoma City, and I'll be there, and so will my mother who lived through the Vietnam war, it will be a first for both of us."

Will Hillary Clinton be there? Why not? Will John McCain be there? Why not?

"MONEY IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"

What's worse, money or greed?

Al Qaeda is twice the size then it was before the Iraq war

quote:

---

democracy is not merely a western value but is universal.

---

Right - Is this because we went to war in Iraq - how do you figure?

quote:

---

"ur majors mean nothing to me"

Would you hire a plumber who had no training or background in plumbing? Would you hire a lawyer that had never attended law school? Look - ones education is important - look at DT - he and I often disagree but it is obvious that he is a political science and history student - it is obvious that his studies have affected him.

---

I agree with you again. This is what I said:

quote:

---

Your majors mean nothing to me, I listen those who have been there, especially, I listen to what several generals had to say about it.

---

Are you saying you're smarter than the generals - they have an education too.

quote:

---

"War should always be avoided at all cost. "

---

To be more exact, "you never use force except as the last resort" General Westly Clark http://www.theinsideout.us/Clark04_Leader_hi.mpeg

Surely - you're not smarter than Westly Clark - and he's just one, there are many others you should study
http://www.captaincynic.com/The_Truth_About_the_Iraq_War.avi

WWII is an exception - every rule has them. When it was decided that war should only be waged as a defense and not an offense, there was still war in our world, but a lot more peace then there would have been.

How many Americans died from "cyclosarin? " Is it more than 1500. That's like hanging a man for smoking and thanking God he didn't die of cancer. That's stupid Xris.

NOT ONE SINGLE IRIQI HAD EVER COME TO AMERICA AND KILLED ANY AMERICANS. BUT WE went to Iraq and KILLED HOW MANY IRAQIs?

quote:

---

No it didn't thanks to our actions throughout the world!

---

I bet you approved of the Vietnam war. Xris - only a war monger could approve of such a thing.

quote:

---

Are you saying the reason the Vietnamese and N Koreans were and are starving is America's fault?

---

I don't remember mentioning anything about Korea. But concerning Vietnam - Have you heard of Agent Orange, Napolm did a bit of damage as well. I don't imagine the bombs hurt anything though.

If I met a war monger who had been to battle and was still indeed a war monger, I'd be scared of that man. He would certainly have a black heart and no concern for life and my life to him would ofcourse be worthless.

If I met a war monger who had never been to battle, I would laugh in his face, surely he is a fool and doesn't know any better.

I've met many who have been to battle, and they are not war mongers, but men haunted daily by nightmares.

"Al Qaeda is twice the size then it was before the Iraq war "

Any such measurement is purely speculative. The change though is that millions of Muslims are now more willing to work for their own democratic reforms because they see it happening throughout the region.

"Right - Is this because we went to war in Iraq - how do you figure? "

Yes because we went to war in Iraq many Arabs and Muslims are now willingly embracing democratization. Listen to what Druze Leader Walid Jumblatt has to say:

It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq. I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world.......The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen.
We can see it."

"Are you saying you're smarter than the generals - they have an education too."

Yes I know there are a few Generals that agree with Clark. However they represent a small minority. Am I smarter than Clark? Oh I think probably so.

"To be more exact, "you never use force except as the last resort" General Westly Clark"

You use force when it is deemed appropriate. You do not wait until it is the last resort in all situations because if you wait too long you may lose numerous advantages. Did Britain not wait too long in WWII?

"WWII is an exception"

Ahh I see - how many millions lost their lives because people were afraid to act and do what was right and preempt Hitler?

"How many Americans died from "cyclosarin? " Is it more than 1500. That's like hanging a man for smoking and thanking God he didn't die of cancer. That's stupid Xris."

The point is hopefully none will - how many Iraqis died from chemical agents? Don't you care about them or do you just care about Americans?

"NOT ONE SINGLE IRIQI HAD EVER COME TO AMERICA AND KILLED ANY AMERICANS. BUT WE went to Iraq and KILLED HOW MANY IRAQIs?"

We did not start the war with the Iraqis so quit playing Saddam's defense attorney. The man was a tyrant and brought about the war - he also tried to assassinate President Bush (the elder). He also harbored a terrorist that killed an elderly wheelchair-bound American Jew. He offered Osama amnesty in Iraq after he bombed the world trade center. Why do you defend him so?

"I bet you approved of the Vietnam war. Xris - only a war monger could approve of such a thing."

So JFK and LBJ were war mongers? I do understand the thinking that lead to the war however I do not approve of their methods for fighting the war. Does that make me a war monger?

I'm confused - Are you saying the reason the Vietnamese were starving was America's fault?

quote:

---

I'm confused - Are you saying the reason the Vietnamese were starving was America's fault?

---

Yes

quote:

---

We did not start the war with the Iraqis

---

We killed about 100 thousand of them - Saddam - we didn't kill him.

So I would say, yes, we went to war with the Iraqis and arrested Saddam. That's about how it went down.

Wow - so it had nothing to do with the economic and political system they embraced. The reason I mention N Korea is because, like the N Vietnamese, they also embraced dictatorial communism. However S Korea implemented a capitalist/democratic system. Now the North starves and the South thrives. Since this is the case in Korea why isnt this the case in Nam?

"We killed about 100 thousand of them - Saddam - we didn't kill him."

Wrong Saddam killed them but putting his people in that position - by breaking the ceasefire agreement - by starting the Gulf war. Its amazing how you always blame America and excuse and defend a tyrant like Saddam.

"So I would say, yes, we went to war with the Iraqis and arrested Saddam. That's about how it went down."

Are you now saying we didnt try to kill Saddam? Does it irk you that free Iraqis will try in a court of law Saddam and then most probably put him to death?

Thank goodness we agreed to help rebuild Iraq - but Vietnam, no, I think they just got sanctions.

Then Mr. Bush lied, soldiers died

See what I mean - you blame your own President ane excuse, ignore and defend Saddam who is the real liar and tyrant. Dont you understand that Al Qaeda cheers when they read their own prooaganda coming from Americans?

"but Vietnam, no, I think they just got sanctions"

You mean you dont know the history? Amazing!

Xris, I know you really believe in this president, the image he projects and the values he seems to be extolling, and I wouldn't dare call myself an authority in politics. However, I simply look at the facts without specific ideology as the criteria for determining what I will and will not acknowledge. The fact is Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 911 or Bin Laden (as established in that final report from the 911 commission). The American people were told differently by the Bush Administration and, even today, many Americans still believe that Hussein ordered the attack. We were told there were weapons of mass destruction when there were none. Faulty intelligence was blamed. Bin Laden was (and is) barely mentioned anymore and free to continue terror throughout the globe while we waste our time, money and, sadly, young American lives in Iraq. Saddam Hussein is a very bad man, no doubt, but there are many evil men in power throughout the world much worse than he (but, then again, these are men we did not wage what is thought of by the Bush clan as an unfinished war against a personally hated leader). All I can say is I wish the Bush Administration would not have so easily sidetracked the American people's vengeance away from our true enemy, Al Qauida and, specifically, Bin Laden.

quote:

---

defend Saddam

---

Where and when did I defend Saddam.

Mr. Bush is the Commander In Chief, and I'm a tax paying citizen of The United States of America. Mr. Bush works for me. I expect him to do a good job. If I don't like what he's doing, I'll say so. I have that right, I've earned that right, and to be silent would be unamerican. To be silent is in support of dictatorships like Saddam's regime.

If I don't think the president has done a good job, I'll say so. Because this is not a dictatorship, I don't support dictatorships, I don't support dictators. I'm an American. Having been in the miltary, I can tell you, as I have seen it first hand, power corrupts, and I, and Americans like me, we won't let that happen here in America.

We DID NOT HAVE TO GO TO WAR. There are dictators all over this world that I or you may not like, but it is not our job to topple their regime just because we don't like them. Because we refuse to topple their regime does not mean we support them.

YOU MIGHT LIKE US TO GO AROUND TAKING EVERY BAD DICTATOR OUT AROUND THE WORLD. BUT YOU WON'T WEAR THE UNIFORM AND JOIN THE EFFORT - YOU'RE ONE WAY. I HEAR IT ALL THE TIME FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOU. GUN HOE, BUT YOU WON'T GO.

Your Daddy Lied, Soldiers Died. 1502, about 100,000 Iraqis, give or take a thousand or two. Nobody talks about the injured, like they don't exist. Saddam still in a comfortable cell and Bin Ladin is free. And you're just so proud of your daddy - living in some fairy tale disney land. I would love to take you to Iraq, put a gun in your hand, and say here, enjoy your war, have fun, bye, see you when you done, we can pin a medal on you then, everybody be so proud.

"The fact is Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 911 or Bin Laden (as established in that final report from the 911 commission)."

Did you read the final 9/11 report? It established a direct link between Saddam and Osama. In fact, Saddam offered Osama asylum in Iraq, did you know that?

"The American people were told differently by the Bush Administration and, even today, many Americans still believe that Hussein ordered the attack."

The Bush admin never, let me say it again NEVER, said that Saddam had anything to do with 9/11. In fact on numerous occasions it said stated that there was no evidence to support such a conclusion. What it did say is that in a post 9/11 world America must take on objectives that it had previously ignored and one was targeting all terrorist sponsoring regimes.

" We were told there were weapons of mass destruction when there were none"

Please list all the nations that told you this. Furthermore do you absolutely know that they weren't transferred out of country in the days leading up to the war?

"Faulty intelligence was blamed."

Which nations had faulty intelligence? Can you list them?

"Bin Laden was (and is) barely mentioned anymore and free to continue terror throughout the globe while we waste our time, money and, sadly, young American lives in Iraq."

He was just talked about in great deal by the President yesterday. And you think he is free? If you had to live a life like his would you call it free? You may think finding him is a simple thing - took us how long to find BTK and he was sending coded hints?

" Saddam Hussein is a very bad man, no doubt, but there are many evil men in power throughout the world much worse than he (but, then again, these are men we did not wage what is thought of by the Bush clan as an unfinished war against a personally hated leader)."

So what is your point? That we must tolerate such bad men? Especially such bad men that break a cease-fire with us?

"All I can say is I wish the Bush Administration would not have so easily sidetracked the American people's vengeance away from our true enemy, Al Qauida and, specifically, Bin Laden."

This is where the ignorance on your side is mind-boggling. Do you understand that al qaeda is nothing without aid from nation states. If you want to fight against al qaeda and don't remove the sources that empower them and provide safe haven for them then you will spend the next thousand years on a pointless exercise - talk about a waste of time, money and men.

I am curious did ya'll (you also okcitykid) support the Bosnian war?


---

Yes you defend Saddam and Osama - you are one of their mouthpieces. Everytime you write Bush lied - soldiers died you make their case and help spread their hateful message. Please answer the question above - Id love to know the answer.

"We DID NOT HAVE TO GO TO WAR"

No we didn't - the question is not one of have but one of should. Should we have gone to war. Then answer is obvious to anyone that hates tyranny and islamo-fascism. Those that are apathetic about terrorist attacks, numerous American and other innocent civilian deaths and the rapid spread of radical jihad do not want us to go to war. They prefer to turn a blind eye and let others worry about it. Such cowardice!

"BUT YOU WON'T WEAR THE UNIFORM AND JOIN THE EFFORT "

You say you served? If you look at my age then you would be familiar with enough facts about military requirements that you would realize how stupid a statement that is. I know - you only play Gomer Pile online.

Xris, none of your arguments change the facts...The fact that Saddam Hussein offered Bin Laden asylum does not mean he had anything to do with the 911. There were other countries that offered and GIVE Bin Laden asylum now. And the administration repeatedly insinuated that Saddam Hussein HAD weapons of mass destruction...I watched his plea-speeches of terror on numerous occasions. He also implied Hussein was in the process of developing more powerful weapons (possibly nuclear weapons). And he did not say outright that Hussein had anything to do with 911 but used wordplay to associate and insinuate a stronger relationship between the two that did not exist, knowing full well the wrath of the american public was ripe for leading us into a war that was NOT necessary. And, once again, there are many leaders much worse than Saddam Hussein, but I do not imply that we should ignore them. I do imply that the the war against Saddam Hussein was motivated by much more than his "evil" regime. Oh, well, this debate could go on forever and an opponent like you will always find little facts like "Saddam Hussein offered Bin Laden asylum" to create some bloated proof that all this stupidity is somehow justified. It's like saying a man is a drug-addict for offering the daybed in his garage to his homeless crackhead brother. Ridiculous. And hopeless. Oh, well.