War - What The Hell Is It Good For - Page 9

"9/11 had nothing to do with Saddam."

No one said it did.

"To think that Saddam would have the balls to give terrorists a nuke is absurd as it would result in the total anihilation of Iraq."

That's naive. If Saddam had the ability to arm a cell with a suitcase nuke there is no way you can say he was too sane to do such a thing. Furthermore, who said anything about nukes? Saddam used chemical agents upon his own people - he surely was mad enough to use it on the Great Satan.

"Clearly we went to war with insufficient evidence."

All it takes is a single violation of a ceasefire to resume a war. Saddam didn't have a single violation - he had hundreds. Clearly we should have resumed the war much earlier but there is no doubting that the evidence was sufficient.

Iran is now surrounded - puts us in a pretty good strategic position.

"All it takes is a single violation of a ceasefire to resume a war. Saddam didn't have a single violation - he had hundreds."
I am not arguing whether the war was illegal or not. I am arguing that the evidence on WMDs was insufficient. That is clear now. Therefore, if we are attacking sovereign nations for having WMDs to protect our security this was DUMB.

Because Iraq had neither the means nor intent to make WMDs (at least for the foreseeable future) the attack has had NO BENEFIT to the USA in this regard. What's more its cost us BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars making our deficit so so much worse. All this without making the US safer.

And unless Arafat's death was caused by the Iraq war, or that Mubarak is reforming because he is scared on invasion, the positive developments in the region are quite independent of the Iraq War.

"You said that you know one thing and that is you are wrong and then you accuse me of being wrong. If you know that you are wrong then your judgment that I am wrong must be wrong. Unless you are now arguing that you are right.

Which is it?"

I said nothing of right and wrong, that concept is completely subjective. I speak only of your ability to know "facts" as such, in a manner no different than I must when referring to "facts" presented by any media consumer, which is all of us.

"They never said he wasn't a threat - they said he wasn't an immediate threat - the threat wasn't what Saddam could do but what he was willing to do or what he was willing to help others do"

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/july2004/100704nothreat.htm

God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.
-- George W. Bush, according to Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, from minutes acquired by Haaretz from cease-fire negotiations between Abbas and faction leaders from the Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Popular and Democratic Fronts (circa June, 2003)

"Do you understand the responsibilities that the sole superpower has? Do you understand the consequences of being viewed as weak and a push-over? Do you understand that by not acting you create the potential for war or more 9/11s? No of course you don't!"

Starting wars is our responsibility?

Do you understand the consequence of being an invading empire? As being a world super power who can be bullied into war? Do you understand that by invading countries you increase chances of 9/11 attacks by terrorizing and infuriating people and constantly killing women and children, and showing them that no one is safe if they don't agree to what we say?

Do you understand that even if it was just a coincidence that oil is so prevelant in the region, that Bushes are oil tycoons, America is greedy for oil, that oil contractors recieve far better pay and even military protection, that American companies are getting no bid contracts, that PENAC made up of some Bush admin had specific and layed out plans for invading and setting up military bases around the region specifically in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, even if all this and of course much more was sheer coincidence, the rest of the world especially countries we are invading might not agree that it is just coincidence.

"Iran is now surrounded - puts us in a pretty good strategic position."

No shit, what a freakin coincidence right?

"Because Iraq had neither the means nor intent to make WMDs (at least for the foreseeable future) the attack has had NO BENEFIT to the USA in this regard. What's more its cost us BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars making our deficit so so much worse. All this without making the US safer."

Neither is true - he had both the means and the intent as has been proven beyond a doubt. In that regards the USA has benefited greatly because the threat is now gone and not only is the US safer but the region and world is safer.

"And unless Arafat's death was caused by the Iraq war, or that Mubarak is reforming because he is scared on invasion, the positive developments in the region are quite independent of the Iraq War."

I will let anti-American Druze leader, Walid Jumblatt, answer you here:

"It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq. I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world.......The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen.
We can see it."

Do you know who Walid Jumblatt is?

No I don't an I'm not going to drop this point. Saddam did not have the means to get WMDs, and he certainly did not have WMDs. Our casus belli vanishes, and although democratization is great, I find this difficult to believe.

Did Bush really go to Iraq BEFORE stabilizing Afganistan (currently ruled by the Mayor of Kabul) because he wanted to democratize it? Did he really do all that for the Iraqis so that they could elect a pro-Iranian, anti-American and religious government?

I mean, really, if that's the case well great cowboy, you've done something commendable at huge risk, had it failed, my we'd only have another civil war in an obscure third world country and wasted billions.

"I said nothing of right and wrong, that concept is completely subjective. "

Is that a subjective statement on your part or objective?

"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them. "

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Bush said this because Abbas said he said this? Is that what you are saying? OMG how funny

"Starting wars is our responsibility? "

Ahh I see you have absolutely no understanding of our responsibilities.

"Do you understand the consequence of being an invading empire? As being a world super power who can be bullied into war? Do you understand that by invading countries you increase chances of 9/11 attacks by terrorizing and infuriating people and constantly killing women and children, and showing them that no one is safe if they don't agree to what we say?"

I will let Kishore Mahbubani, Singapore's former Ambassador to the United Nations answer you:

"America has done more good for the rest of the world than any other society. The single biggest gift that America has shared with the impoverished billions on our planet is hope.

At the end of the Cold War, America made an awesome strategic error: It decided to behave like an ordinary country. There is nothing inherently wrong with behaving like an ordinary country, especially a peaceful ordinary country. The only problem is that, over the course of 200 years, America had succeeded in convincing mankind that it was an extraordinary country."

"Do you understand that even if it was just a coincidence that oil is so prevelant in the region, that Bushes are oil tycoons, America is greedy for oil"

Do you understand that America gets very ittle oil from the Middle East? No you dont. Do you understand that the reason France opposed the war was because they had a good thing with Saddam? No you dont.

"No shit, what a freakin coincidence right?"

Pretty smart 'coincidence' right?

"No I don't an I'm not going to drop this point. Saddam did not have the means to get WMDs, and he certainly did not have WMDs. Our casus belli vanishes, and although democratization is great, I find this difficult to believe. "

He sure the hell did - read the Kay report.

"Kay's inspection team has uncovered "dozens of WMD program activities and significant amounts of equipment" that Iraq had been concealing from United Nations inspections. Inspectors found traces of an Iraqi bio-warfare program and indications of continued interest in the production of chemical weapons as late as 2003.

Inspectors made several dramatic discoveries about Iraq's efforts to build ballistic missiles. Saddam Hussein was clearly intent on developing missiles with ranges that violated the limitations imposed on Iraq's program after the 1991 Gulf War. Iraq's missile program has also been benefiting from foreign assistance. North Korea is named as one foreign supplier, but there are references to other foreign countries and "entities" helping the Iraqis.

Kay's report shows that Saddam Hussein never lost interest in obtaining nuclear weapons and that he sought to restart the program in 2000. A cadre of nuclear scientists had been kept together and Iraq may have been "reconstituting" a uranium enrichment program."

BTW - the new gov't of Iraq is not anti-American and is clearly not pro-Iranian-style clerical rule. The new PM has stated that America should not leave Iraq until it is secure. Hardly anti-American.

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! Bush said this because Abbas said he said this? Is that what you are saying? OMG how funny

I'm afraid I don't know what you are talking about, I merely listed a quote that you said he didn't say.

You listed a quote? You believe he said that? OMG you more naive than I had imagined!

Do you have a link to the Kay Report so I can find out? I recall that we not only didn't find any WMDs but that Saddam was just too poor for anything to get done.

" The new PM has stated that America should not leave Iraq until it is secure. Hardly anti-American."
Obviously they're going to kiss your ass while your gun is pointed at their brains.

No all I can find is comentaries about it - I'll keep looking though...

"Obviously they're going to kiss your ass while your gun is pointed at their brains."

Obviously the new PM wants whats best for his new nation! And oviously America is best suite to help and its obvious that the new Iraqi leadership knows this.

I didnt know you were also Angelfire - I had thought that was a girl for some reason, lol.

quote:

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Didn't you write:

"By the way - The Bin Ladin Family and the Bush family are close friends. Connect the dots, or put the pieces together, if you can."

You are clearly maligning Osama's father, are you not? You are clearly judging a father or family by their son's sins, are you not?

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No - obviously you can't connect the dots

"Obviously the new PM wants whats best for his new nation! And oviously America is best suite to help and its obvious that the new Iraqi leadership knows this."
Or perhaps the Iraqis know its best not to PISS OFF America or they'll just replace that PM with a more compliant one.

"I didnt know you were also Angelfire - I had thought that was a girl for some reason, lol."
There's another Angelfire? Oh, well, mine now

"Or perhaps the Iraqis know its best not to PISS OFF America or they'll just replace that PM with a more compliant one. "

Perhaps but since it is Iraqis and fellow Muslims that are trying to assassinate them I think they are more likely to trust America's motives than the islamo-fascists. They probably like the protection we provide as they rebuild their security forces, dontcha think?

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"No - obviously you can't connect the dots "

Yes you are correct - I am not capable of connecting your dots. Please connect them for me - please explain in detail what you are trying to say or impugn.

I don't have the time Xris - you disbelieve anything I tell you anyways, so why should I even make the time.

Don't pay any attention to that man behind the curtin.