The ultimate and first beginning - Page 2

"If God is not the ultimate thing....then who is?... Man?... "

Huh? I argued that God was the ULTIMATE THING. Read what I said again:

That does not mean that one then should imagine God as nothing then...LMAO Yes man can not properly imagine that Something but that does not negate the fact that God is the ultimate THING.

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It was you that was calling God the imaginable nothing - what I was saying is that you were using the wrong word - instead of nothing you should have said 'something'.

What was the beginning of this thread? And has it ended?

that i will... the beggining has ended but the end is begining. i persoannly THINK, i dont know god damnit, every time i say this on this forum everyone flips out and starts talkin mad shit, i THINK!!!!!!!!!!!!! that there is no god, and everything has a begginign and an end, nothing has an infinite cause. sooner or later the end will begin and finnaly the begining of the end will end. and i think that we are ALL our own god, and we just belive in the acctuly "entity" god with so much will, we acctuly create him, so we have an aswer for the unanswered. and so much belief is put into this so called "god" that he becoms exsistant and is able to do whatever you tell him to do, b/c god is you, b/c i THINK that everything is acctuly your own optical illusion, and everything you made and can make again. and god does this for you b/c you dont belive you are not capible of of creating all of this so you belive in a ALL MIGHTY that is capible of anything, so you have an aswer to it all, in this is what you BELIVE so this is what will happen. and i think it all began with the single thought of how is this possible? and every thought there has to be an answer, or else it wouldnt be a thought. so whatever made this thought made an answer that answered it, and therefor began the answering that would begin the answering to the end. which would answer the end of the begining. but still that snwers nothing b/c i dotn even know how a thought would be able to form out of nothing. how can you take NOTHING and make it SOMETHING is the answer. and that i do not poses, sorry for wasting your time...

My fellow philosophers, doesn't it make you want to shoot the people who say that philosophers only sit around thinking and never achieve anything. This has just happened to me and I felt like hitting them as they have know real beliefs themselves and considering that I now know they are ignorant and their mind has no space for thoughts or theories. I am sure if I were to ask them them how the universe came about they would say something along the lines of `God made us`. This is all their mind consists of thoughts which have basically been driven into them. Doesn't this make you mad!!!!!!!

So how did the universe came about?

What does the way our minds work, in relation to computers, have anything to do with the infinite existence of something? Unless of course you're asking whether we believe that something can exist forever or not because then the answer could only be yes or no.

A question I pose is: were the first questions of this thread meant to be answered in a physical or a philosophical means? The way we seem to be progressing is more towards the philosophical as it is the easiest to argue about.

And for any kind of discussion of the origins of the universe you have to be willing to accept that something that can either slip out side or exist completely out side the effects of temporal space, yet still affect it, has to have existed forever, because the big bang would be, in my opinion impossible because, if anyone knows anything about density and gravity, then they would know that all the matter in the universe contained in a point with no real space/volume/dimensions (a geometric point) would have an infinite density, and therefore an infinite gravitational pull from which no manner of explosion or pull could release all the matter trapped inside. This matter would need to be accelerated to exponentially faster than light speeds which would be impossible unless there was some way for said matter to step outside the physical laws of matter and ignore gravitational pull, or step into and then out of another dimension that isn't bound by physical properties; if that's even remotely plausible.

I know this is basically my attempt at disproving the big bang, but I hope it has at least answered one question someone might have had about something.

kudos amaru.... kudos.

...perhaps the ultimate thing is no-thing at all...

you know what i learnt no one not even the scientist can prove that God exist or dosent exist .

so ever time i here someone try to rationalize existance it gives me the creeps.

if you study the cosmos you will see that most of the logic we have here on earth dosent hold up very well in the great unknown
so if everybody will stop acting like as if they can rationalize everthing and just give thier point maybe we can all learn something from each other.

Are there any objective scientifically minded people on this board? Why do most of you believe that a sentient being or designer (God) is responsible for the universes creation? God is the ultimate cop out in answering this sort of question. Science is ever evolving. A scientist is on an eternal quest to find the answer to this very question. Just because science can't answer the question out right doesn't mean that a designer is a more plausible alternative. The idea of a designer is so implausible that it's not even worthy of the title 'alternative'. To be absolutely frank, this is not a philosophical question. Unfortunately most people want a definitive answer, which ironically makes this question a futile one. At the end of the day mate, you're not going to get a definite answer, your just going to be left asking a hell of allot more questions. That is unless you believe in God. LOL

"^^If God is not the ultimate thing....then who is?... Man?... humans are on a canvas that's forever being painted by God, through experience and life......God is all that controls us, all "that holds this dust of man together....all that keeps our bodies from returning to what it was made from.....God IS the ultimate thing....there's nothing else...and no this argument doesn't matter...that doesn't make it a contradiction....it makes it an irrelevant occurence....... cuz this really makes no point.. we're just throwing useless words around and nobody is shifting from their point of view....I see where you're comming from tho....that's to think logically about the whole situation of life and the universe....but there's another understanding of just realization that everything is just the way it is...and we have no control over it, because we're merely unknowing dead piles of dust...that has God's life flowing through us!..." -730

If that is you view, why bother posting. Why not go to Rome and become a monk? Why watch MTV, isn't MTV full of young sexually active blasphemers? In fact why not opt out of this 'hypocritical society' all together? I can only answer for myself in addressing your statement.

"we're just throwing useless words around and nobody is shifting from their point of view"- 730

What do you mean by that? The only reason you're saying that is because most people religious or otherwise wouldn't switch to your defeatist point of view. It's human nature to ask questions of this nature. The reason I put forth a point of view is to hold it up to scrutiny. If someone disproves my argument I will humbly accept defeat and I will gleefully rest assured in the knowledge that I learnt something new.

I think there's a lot of truth in what 730 said throughout this entire thread. Does anybody read anymore or is everyone just waiting for their turn to show how smart they can be?

A few random thoughts...

God is a metaphor. So if treated that way I do in fact think you can prove its existence or lack thereof. Consider how important our existence is to manifest his/hers too.

The beginning and the end are so far removed from us it almost seems pointless to concern ourselves with searching for the answer. If one must, I think that since all in existence is operating the same way through out even our lives, our minds, our thoughts; we only need to look at ourselves. Examine oneself, though, not on the terms we know or expect, the terms the universe are following. We are a part of that whole, so are the parts that make up each of our wholes. Consider this, we are each part of a very relative example that the question here addresses. We each have had a point we didn't exist and will soon have a time we return to it.

I guess the point of this thread is to find an "ultimate" answer. Doesn't that sort of pollute it? The question that is. What becomes ultimate about any answer, the number that agrees, the number that will die fighting for and as a consequence to place its permenance in the inventory of human knowledge? Ultimate suggests final, doesn't that sort of contradict the question asked at the beginning of this thread? If we can come up with any final answer than the universe too must become final for then there would be no chance to refute it or have the universe demonstrate to us any different.

The answer can only be nothing more than a metaphor too. Perhaps that is the only ultimate consequence. Really, if a metaphor is something we can only manifest as a symbol of reality and each of us are "real" and "true" then the answer is too. Live with your answer and not let it effect the reality of others but let it still impress, at least in effort.