Remarkable State of the Union Speech... - Page 4

"I think I explained why pretty well. However, we are also loved to a greater degree and by greater numbers than any other nation on the globe. You think so? Who loves you? The jealous Europeans? The Chinese who seem to be biding their historical economic supremacy? The Indians who have always explicitly rejected the American line and vowed for neutrality? The latin Americans who seem to systematically have their countries destroyed by America if they even lean slightly to the Left? The Arabs? The polls seem negative on that last one I'm afraid.

Eastern Europe and the Kurds love you. The rest of the world goes from indifference to hate.

"The Israelis have shown time and again that they are willing to allow the Palestinians to create a nation as long as they are willing to living as peaceful neighbors."
I understand Israel wants security. That's why the wall is not fundamentally bad. What IS bad is that Israel is STILL colonizing Arab land in the Golan heights and that Israel has made their wall cover land which is clearly Arab.

Israel is no longer in danger, Egypt and Jordan are pacifist, Iraq is destroyed, Syria is a joke anyway. All major threats are dead, Israel can no longer use security as an excuse for its wrong-doings.

"I also think Bush deserves a lot of credit by demanding such a high standard from the Palestinians."
Or alternatively, he is tyranous for trying to force a short-sighted diktat on a defeated people.

"No, I think an extremely unhealthy minority do. But I believe a majority wants to live like us and be like us and have us as their ally."
When looking at Iraqi opinion. I think the opinion of the Shiites are probably the most significant. The 1/5 of Sunnis are unhappy because they're no longer in charge, 1/5 of Kurds are happy because they have, rightly, been freed from fear of Saddam.

The Shiites represent the "unbiased" ones. Significantly, it seems the recent elections were mostly free and fair. Even more significantly, they did not vote for the secularists, they voted for the Islamic-leaning, Grand Ayatollah-Backed party with ties with Iran.

They don't want to be American it seems.

This impressive knowledge of Middle Eastern affairs is great, and I find it all extremely interesting and informatiive, but the real issue no one seems to want to talk about is that we had NO REASON to invade Iraq...It was all based on either erroneous intelligence (which I doubt) or lies (which I think is probably the case)...And whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (as a case for war) would have been a serious concern IF AND ONLY IF Saddam Hussein was in any way involved with the 911 attacks (an assertion that has already been proven false by the 911 Commision, no matter what any pro-Bush Administration idiot insinuates)...The country was hot for blood and. since we were unable or unwilling to capture the true culprit (Bin Laden), the Administration decided to take advantage of the heat of the moment and shift our attentions to Iraq and, specifically, Saddam Hussein...And rather than spending all our energy and resources on trying to get Bin Laden we're wasting our time, money and lives in Iraq!!!...Geez!

"The rest of the world goes from indifference to hate."

I understand that you believe this however, like Ive said, that same world wants so desperately to immigrate here and buy all things American. How do you resolve such a contradiction? And yes vast numbers of Chinese, Europeans, Africans, Indians and Arabs. Purchasing goods Americana is also a type of poll.

"That's why the wall is not fundamentally bad."

Be careful - Leftwood will call you a bigot. And didnt the Europeans roundly criticize the wall?

"Israel is no longer in danger"

OMG, lol. Yeah Im sure such a small population loves having so many of their young murdered.

"Or alternatively, he is tyranous for trying to force a short-sighted diktat on a defeated people."

WTF are you talking about now? So he was wrong to not deal with Arafat and now hes wrong to deal with their new ELECTED leader?

"When looking at Iraqi opinion. I think the opinion of the Shiites are probably the most significant. The 1/5 of Sunnis are unhappy because they're no longer in charge, 1/5 of Kurds are happy because they have, rightly, been freed from fear of Saddam."

That was one poll from almost a year ago. I found an ABC poll that was much different - especially when you looked at all the specifics. And when you do examine the specifics it is obvious they want to be like Americans - and also think that all aspects of their lives have vastly improved since the ousting of Saddam. The large number of people who came out to voite is also a much more impressive poll!!!

"but the real issue no one seems to want to talk about is that we had NO REASON to invade Iraq...It was all based on either erroneous intelligence (which I doubt) or lies (which I think is probably the case)...And whether or not Iraq had weapons of mass destruction "

Actually Wizard, I did deal with this point.

To reiterate the US was justified in its resumption of the war. Saddam had signed a ceasefire agreement with us and the UN and then went about violating it repeatedly over 12 years. The WMDs was only one OF MANY examples of Saddams violation of the ceasefire. Others included firing missiles at planes patrolling the no-fly zone, kicking out UN inspectors, refusing to abide by UN dismantling protocols, etc. If you ever listen to Bush's state of the Union, or his address to the UN or Colin Powell and Rice's numerous speeches they constantly cited these as examples of Iraq's violation of the Ceasefire.

The question Bush was forced to deal with is is it acceptable for the US to allow an enemy under a state of ceasefire to continue to spit in our face in a post-9/11 world? I think Bush answered that question extremely well!

"WTF are you talking about now? So he was wrong to not deal with Arafat and now hes wrong to deal with their new ELECTED leader?"
He was wrong to let the wall cover PALESTINIAN land. He was wrong to still keep on joyously pumping aid and guns into Israel as they steal land from the Palestinian nation and use violence against civilians.

But they're just aye-rabs, who cares, right?

"The large number of people who came out to voite is also a much more impressive poll!!!"
Don't you think its significant they voted for the quasi-Islamist party with ties to the Grand Ayatollah and Iran? And that they resoundly rejected the pro-American 'we want to be the 51st State party".

Don't you RECOGNISE that the infrastructure of the country and basic amenities have been far far less reliable since the invasion?

"He was wrong to let the wall cover PALESTINIAN land. He was wrong to still keep on joyously pumping aid and guns into Israel as they steal land from the Palestinian nation and use violence against civilians."

Apparently he wasn't wrong since the Palestinians now have an actually chance for sovereignty and democracy - the first real chance in years. Why would you want Bush to cower the will of the Saudis and Osama? And you said you didn't have much of a problem with the wall, didn't you? Was Bush wrong when he was the first President to call for a sovereign Palestinian state? Furthermore, the Israelis stole nothing but paid for their lands with price of innocent blood. Its amazing you take Arafat's side - truly amazing. Do you hate all Jews or just Israelis?

Yes I think it is highly significant namely because it destroys all the (and your) arguments that the election was puppet orchestrated. And I don't believe Chalibi will turn Iraq into another Iran. Furthermore, the factions wont allow it.

"Don't you RECOGNISE that the infrastructure of the country and basic amenities have been far far less reliable since the invasion?"

Not according to vast majorities of Iraqis.

Xris, man you spend to much time soaking up government propagada. Get out more, maybe go to some foreign countries, then you may see all they tell you, is not the truth.

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The only biggotry comes from your hatred for both your own country and the truth.
"Greed is capitalism, capitalism is the heart of America anymore."

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Greed is not capitalism. Maybe DT can explain this to you because I fear you automatically ignore anything I say.

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Capitalism is based on greed & consumerism upon gluttony.

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Capitalism has been proven by history to be the greatest equalizer between the rich and the poor and thus reduces the power of the greedy in the long run.
Of course greed is a sin and is rampant, which has more to do with the modern rejection of religion than anything else.

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The age of desire to elevate yourself rather than share with others?

I hate any of those who commit ethnic cleansing and shameless theft of land.

"Not according to vast majorities of Iraqis."
You are too out of touch with reality. I'm bored.

Gooday.

"I hate any of those who commit ethnic cleansing and shameless theft of land."

Then you hate every nation on the planet! Talk about unrealistic and boring - it is such a simplistic emotional response.

A nation is not guilty of the sin of its ancestors.

We cannot morally tolerate it happening today. If you think its OK, well I guess it would be ok for Mexico to retake California and Texas.

England is culpable today: ULSTER!!! And according to your rationale that makes you guilty (or half guilty).

This is how stupid your argument is - ok to take Texas back - don't you get it - Texans owned Texas because they won Texas. Israel owns Israel including what you call Palestinian lands because they won it - and furthermore Israel was never the aggressor. That's like calling all land west of San Antonio Mexican lands after the Texan Revolution. In fact Mexico did renege on its treaty with Texas and tried to take back lands east of the Rio Grande - does that mean you supported those actions?

"England is culpable today: ULSTER!!! And according to your rationale that makes you guilty (or half guilty)."
First of all, England is not grabbing more land. England has very good relations (and a shared peace agreement for Ulster) with the Republic of Ireland. So this isn't just a simple question of one nation oppressing another.

The problem is armed minorities on both sides wish to pursue the conflict, these are paramilitaries (much like Hamas is to the PA) which are effectively uncontrollable by either Britain or Ireland. However, Israel should be able to control her own army.

"In fact Mexico did renege on its treaty with Texas and tried to take back lands east of the Rio Grande - does that mean you supported those actions?"
Its an analogy dickwad, IF you support Jews taking land (today today) which they haven't owned for TWO THOUSAND years, then you must also support Mexicans taking land which they haven't own for two hundred years.

"and furthermore Israel was never the aggressor."
Because Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian governments used to represent the Palestinian people?The Palestinians should no pay for other Arab governments' sins. And not returning their land, and killing them, is only going to exacerbate the actions of extremist minorities.

"First of all, England is not grabbing more land. England has very good relations (and a shared peace agreement for Ulster) with the Republic of Ireland. So this isn't just a simple question of one nation oppressing another. "

However good the relations are with England, the fact is that the Irish, unlike the Palestinians, have chosen that course of action even though they were the truly oppressed, unlike the Palestinians who were the oppressors.

"e problem is armed minorities on both sides wish to pursue the conflict, these are paramilitaries (much like Hamas is to the PA) which are effectively uncontrollable by either Britain or Ireland. However, Israel should be able to control her own army"

I'm pretty sure a majority of Irish in Ulster want British occupation to end. And I can name numerous events that happened within the last 30 years where the Brits were unable to control their army and horrible atrocities against innocent Irish Catholics occurred. In fact a movie was recently made about an Irish peace activist who shares my surname played by Julie Walters that exposes the Brits inability to control their army.

"Its an analogy dickwad, IF you support Jews taking land (today today) which they haven't owned for TWO THOUSAND years, then you must also support Mexicans taking land which they haven't own for two hundred years. "

Dickwad? lmao - good word... The point is that it was a bad analogy. The point is that (today today) they own all of the land and can settle it the way they see fit. The point is that the Arabs lost the land after starting and losing the wars. And your 2000 years argument is also false. Jews have lived and owned land in the region throughout history.

"Because Syrian, Jordanian and Egyptian governments used to represent the Palestinian people?The Palestinians should no pay for other Arab governments' sins."

No you mean Arabs - you cant say Palestinian since its a made up word - they are Arabs - the Jews were called Palestinians before 1948. Please read about the history of modern Israel - the land was considered by the ruling Arabs in the region utterly worthless because nothing would grow there and happily sold it to Jews from Russia and Europe in the 19th century. Also there were no local Arab governments or nation states. It was then taken by - guess who - the British - who created the Arab nation states and then did everything they could to oppose the establishment of Israel.

"I'm pretty sure a majority of Irish in Ulster want British occupation to end."
Define "Irish". Do you mean Catholics? Then yes. If you mean all people born in Ireland, protestant and catholic, then no.

"The point is that (today today) they own all of the land and can settle it the way they see fit. The point is that the Arabs lost the land after starting and losing the wars."
The Palestinian-Arabs are not responsible and should not be punished for the actions of their unelected dictators!

Just because someone attacked you doesn't give you a right to f*ck over their civilians! Israel has a right to exist. Israel has a right to ensure its security but with Egypt/Jordan/Iraq no longer dangerous... What's the threat?? Israel should return all stolen land after the '67 War and allow for the creation of a deballed/quasi-demilitarized Palestinian state. A Palestinian state with the right to a piece of Old Jerusalem.

Why should we support Israel grabbing as much land as possible from a future Palestinian-Arab state?

Nevermind that the Israelis were agressors in both the 6 day and Suez wars...