Remarkable State of the Union Speech... - Page 3

Assume everything you like, you will anyway, I said some things I had heard, nothing more, after telling you my beliefs which I have no conclusive opinion for I cannot without access to Classified material (just like you though you don't even account for this), this statement of yours is in your own contrived and incorrect context that has nothing to do with my opinions.

Your laughing at my claims of ignorance by way of National security is odd to me. Do you have Top Secret information delivered to your door every morning with your papers, a true classifieds section?

If not then you simply repeat spin and information to which you cannot personaly support with anything that cannot be deemed at least possible propaganda or falsified information.

The really weird thing is you understand this concept perfectly if it is in regards to debunking "left wing" claims or sources, but if against what Bush or "right wingers" claim or say than its all about hypocricy and delusions.

I assumed nothing. You are so out there that you are incapable of recognizing that Al Qaeda was responsible for 9/11. For you it is an unknown that only people with top secret clearance can judge.

Is it a sad, lonely, and very scary world that you live in? Do you ever believe that agents are hiding in the shadows and listening devices are hidden in your clothes? Have you ever made a foil hat to protect against beams from outer space?

"I say jealous, frustrated and way too dependent."
Now imagine how the arabs, consistently beaten, conquered, ethnically cleansed, puppeteered and humiliated feel.
"Therefore, I expect piss poor Arabs being run by pro-American authoritarians and being killed by Jews using American guns to hate us A LOT MORE."

"Being killed by Jews? WTF are talking about now. You are talking about the Arabs love for their Palestinian brethren? Give me a break! The Arabs have done nothing to help out the Palestinians except convince them to start wars against the innocent Israelis."
That's called a war of liberation against an occupying power. At least from an Arab POV.

"Do you even know any Jordanians? I have known quite a few and none of them hate America."
Well I know 1 Jordanian and 1 Syrian.

"Jordan has also kept close ties to the US, now has a parliament even with women ministers and American blood in the royal family."
EXACTLY YOU FOOL. Don't you understand that exactly because the *government* is friendly with us, but authoritarian with its people then they are inclined to blame the authoritarianism on the puppeteer: America.

Proves my point exactly. My two Arab friends, and most of my British friends agree: the Arabs states are puppets of America.

And you know what? It DOESNT MATTER if its true or not. What matters is that it is perceived and that

"Neither Syria nor Jordan (only 6%) are Christian - you are thinking of Lebanon."
Um.. Did I say Jordan was christian? I said my Jordanian friend is Christian.

"The Iraqis are willing to die for their freedom - that's what the purple stained fingers reveals."
I think a few more are dying in the name of freedom from a neo-imperial oppressor. Who, it just so happens, is giving all the best oil contracts to American companies.

"That's such a stupid comparison. In the first place Californians are not under the control of an evil dictator but are represented by an elected official. Secondly, the US and China have not fought a war or are in a cease-fire. Thirdly, Californians would never believe themselves liberated like the majority of Iraqis do. Lastly, the Chinese would not set up a free, democratic republican government that protected civil rights that actually put their nation's resources into the hands of the Iraqi people for the first time in their lives."
Idiot, I was comparing California to Palestine, not Iraq. Palestine is the one with the ethnic cleansing, Iraq is the one with the oil going out. Is that clear? Ok good.

Seriously, what would you say if China suddenly supported massive Hispanic colonization of California? And then supported the Hispanics evicting whites, bulldozing their homes and such and such. What would you say? Its completely comparable.

"OMG come on dude! And what the hell was Iraq, Jordan, Syria etc before the Europeans established them as nations, do you know?"
Part of the Ottoman Empire. Jordan for one has NO HISTORY as an independent state prior to that. Iraq corresponds VERY ROUGHLY to a medieval province with no relation to modern state. Syria probably has the most legitimacy as it has a fairly long history, usually tied to Egypt.

The Arab world is a lot like Germany in the 19th Century, a collection of identities which, depending on who you ask, forms a common nation or not. Arabs I talk to tend to flip flop a lot on this point, I ask them "do you think the Arabs should have one country?" They usually aren't sure.

All I will say, is that many in Europe and I'm fairly sure the Arab World, can and do interpret America's actions as selfish with no consideration for the interests of Iraqis or other Arabs. Because of a long tradition of trying to weaken the stronger Arab states, because of American condonement of Israel's mistreatment and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, because it *appears* obvious to most non-Americans that the regimes in the area Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are authoritarian dictatorships who serve the USA and the Jews more then their own people.

I DON'T CARE WHETHER OR NOT THESE POLICIES ARE GOOD, THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is, these policies are EASILY INTERPRETED as proof of total lack of US interest in the welfare of Arabs and a total backing for American oil interests and Jewish ethnic cleansing.

"Now imagine how the arabs, consistently beaten, conquered, ethnically cleansed, puppeteered and humiliated feel."

What - like the Irish did? Maybe they should respond like the Poles did. Am I expecting to much from their people for you?

"That's called a war of liberation against an occupying power. At least from an Arab POV. "

Yeah and they can call white black too - doesnt make it right. Since the Jews purchased their lands and since the World (UN) partitioned the land to both the Jews and Arabs then the word occupiers simply can not apply.

"EXACTLY YOU FOOL. Don't you understand that exactly because the *government* is friendly with us, but authoritarian with its people then they are inclined to blame the authoritarianism on the puppeteer: America.

"No you are the fool. Jordanians dont hate their govt or their royalty moron. And you can hardly call the Jordanians authoritarian now that they have a parliament.

"It DOESNT MATTER if its true or not. What matters is that it is perceived and that "

Depends on who is doing the perceiving. Since your friends are fools and dont represent the majority of Jordanian thought then their perceptions are meaningless.

"I think a few more are dying in the name of freedom from a neo-imperial oppressor. Who, it just so happens, is giving all the best oil contracts to American companies."

You can associate your interests with Al Qaeda and Ba'thists all you want - your support for them is not representative by a majority of Iraqis. As to the contracts I say hell yes - who should we give it to - the French? lmao Furthermore, a good bit of that work simply cant be done as well in any comparable way as American companies can do, like Haliburton.

"Seriously, what would you say if China suddenly supported massive Hispanic colonization of California? And then supported the Hispanics evicting whites, bulldozing their homes and such and such. What would you say? Its completely comparable. "

I would say you are delusional. There is no comparison there that has any bearing upon anything going on in Iraq.

"I DON'T CARE WHETHER OR NOT THESE POLICIES ARE GOOD, THAT'S NOT THE POINT. The point is, these policies are EASILY INTERPRETED as proof of total lack of US interest in the welfare of Arabs and a total backing for American oil interests and Jewish ethnic cleansing."

And I dont care what some racist backwards person perceives about American and Israeli actions since these people refuse to take any action that will lead to their own betterment and freedom but continuously support their authoritarian regimes. What I do care about is that the right minded Arab knows America is his best friend and will risk his life to bring peace and freedom to the region. I care far more about reality than perceptions. I care far more about the truth than propaganda. The Middle East has just watched the Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghanis participate in the democratic process and the region knows that the US made this happen. The effect that this will have upon Eygpt, Saudis and Iranians are an unknown but are clearly a move in the right direction. In fact the effect could be tremendous. And if it is, the region will know who fought for the peoples liberation and who opposed it. As I am now, I will be even more proud then. You and others, however, will have to live with the fact that you opposed our actions which lead to their freedom. The Arabs will know who truly wanted them kept under the strong arm of their authoritarian leaders. The Arabs will understand that your need of oil outweighed the risk of too much change in the region. Since the US does not rely upon Middle Eastern oil as Europe does then maybe it easier for us to promote such positive change.

I repeat...Bush is an idiot...and all this double-talk about how Bush is great guy and how it's not his fault he was operating on erroneous intelligence makes me sick...Bush, like many in the past, is a self-serving egomaniac using the christian platform to pursue his conservative, republican policies which are really about furthering the goals of big business...Every republican politician knows that war unifies a country in its thirst for blood while depleting the funds which would normally go to programs regarded by politicians as bureaucracy...It's a way to transform the government by forcing such bureaucracies out of existence...It's all a devious trick!...The mindset of the country has become one of "me first" and the hell with anybody else...It's this attitude that if people can't take care of themselves, then #@%& them!...The old Darwinian "survival of the fittest" attitude sutained by this psuedo-religious, "holier than though" stupidity...Republicans ( really just self-centered complainers when it comes to taxes and the idea that minorities and poor people are lazy) know that religion sedates people into thinking that they do not need to worry about this life, and shouldn't complain about it, because there is "another life," after death, in heaven...STUPID!!!...The joke is that social problems are going to get alot worse if this bullshit continues...There's going to be more crime, more drugs, more misery than ever before, and it will reach the doorsteps of people who think they are insulated from it all...Things won't get any better for anyone except the really rich and powerful who will live in iron-gated palaces with their own armies to protect them!...I feel sorry for anyone who thinks that the U.S. is going to be this wonderful Utopia once Bush gets through with it!

...But, yes, xris, I guess Bush IS a "smart idiot"...The people who agree with him are the the real "idiots."

Well, when a democrat is in office, its common knowledge that anyone is an idiot who blindly trusts a politician (especially one rich from big business and family political ties), but somehow the rules change for Bush, go figure.

"What - like the Irish did? Maybe they should respond like the Poles did. Am I expecting to much from their people for you?"
Just because I am 1/2 British does not mean I endorse British policies. But then you agree Arabs have reason to hate you?

"Yeah and they can call white black too - doesnt make it right. Since the Jews purchased their lands and since the World (UN) partitioned the land to both the Jews and Arabs then the word occupiers simply can not apply."
What they purchased the Golan heights and the West Bank too? And LEGITIMACY IS NOT THE POINT. The UN can say the sky is pokadot, but Arabs will hate you either way.

"No you are the fool. Jordanians dont hate their govt or their royalty moron. And you can hardly call the Jordanians authoritarian now that they have a parliament."
A parliament, woop-de-friggin-do. The EU also has a parliament, does that parliament do anything? NO. The Jordanian is identical and weak. And again, I am going my arab friends and their friends, they all claim the entire region is just puppets of the US. Especially Jordan, they believe that prior to the 6 day war, the first thing the Jordanian King did was tell the US Nasser's plans for war.

Its probably not true, but the fact that they believe it shows they think their government is a puppet one (besides the fact they would be arrested and imprisoned if they say it in public).

"Depends on who is doing the perceiving. Since your friends are fools and dont represent the majority of Jordanian thought then their perceptions are meaningless."
Obviously an American knows Arab opinion far better then Arabs themselves.

"I would say you are delusional. There is no comparison there that has any bearing upon anything going on in Iraq."
PALESTINE PALESTINE. God, HINT. Ethnic cleansing occurs in PALESTINE, not Iraq. Not yet anyway.

Jews coming into Palestine, destroying Palestinan homes, killing Palestinians, grabbing huge swathes of territory and evicting people from their rightful land is going to be unpopular with the Arabs.

This makes America unpopular.

"And I dont care what some racist backwards person perceives about American and Israeli actions"
Sadly they make up the majority of Arabs.

Honestly, get a grip, the world hates you. Especially the Arab world. There's a reason every country's people on the planet (except Poland) wanted Kerry to be president.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/iraq_poll/flash.htm

You see, the Kurds are very happy with us. A whopping 98% think they are better off thanks to invasion.

Only 1 in 5 Sunnis thinks it was good overall and even only 28% of Shiites thinks it was good overall. Hardly an overwhelming endorsement.

What do they think of Bush? Among Arabs it doesn't go above 15% approval. But he looks good compared to Saddam! (10% favourable)

Interestingly, a clear majority is happy with Saddam's ousting. But that doesn't mean they like Americans, on the contrary 70% of Iraqis view them as "occupiers" not "liberators". Clearly, they didnt like Saddam, but they just barely hate America less.

So, compared to Saddam, they love you!

And I frankly think you're thinking is ridiculously wishful if you expected it to be any different.

"Just because I am 1/2 British does not mean I endorse British policies. But then you agree Arabs have reason to hate you? "

No I don't agree Arabs have reason to hate the US. Nor do they have a reason to hate Israel. Hate the British and French, yeah maybe. I do agree that tyrannical forces have used anti-Semitism in the region in order to gain power and land. And if you know the history of Israel and its neighbors you would know this too. I have had good Arab friends that were so brainwashed when it came to Israel it was depressing and no amount of historical facts would alter their opinion. Maybe it would be easier if the US followed the European model and abandoned our democratic ally, the Israelis, to fascist Arabic domination and appeased those with all the oil, however we Americans apparently are more moral and principled than that.

"What they purchased the Golan heights and the West Bank too? And LEGITIMACY IS NOT THE POINT. The UN can say the sky is pokadot, but Arabs will hate you either way."

No they won that after repeated wars where the Arabs where the aggressors. Maybe the Brits should give Gibraltar back, eh? Or the French all its holdings in Africa? Id just be happy with Ulster. And LEGITIMACY is the point if you believe in justice and morality. If you believe in appeasement in order to get better prices on your crude then by all means abandon the Israelis. But hey, the Brits voted against Israel so I guess your ass is covered. As for Arabs hating, Arabs hate - Arabs jihad - its a part of their essential being. Ironically, Arabs will continue to hate you even if you appease them. If you want Osama and his cult to like you then I don't know what you could really do much different. I'm sure he doesn't fear you though and he still hates you.

"A parliament, woop-de-friggin-do."

Oh I see - you equate it to the Taliban? Geez - I guess its not a good start? I guess you don't see it as a positive development? Will the EU Parliament forever be "weak"? Uh huh.

"Obviously an American knows Arab opinion far better then Arabs themselves."

Its clearly possible. lol

"Ethnic cleansing occurs in PALESTINE, not Iraq. Not yet anyway. Jews coming into Palestine, destroying Palestinan homes, killing Palestinians, grabbing huge swathes of territory and evicting people from their rightful land is going to be unpopular with the Arabs."

Oh I see, the evil Jews wanted more land so they decided to forego peace with their loving and peaceful Arabic neighbors and started war after war. Tell you what boyo, read about Israels history and then we'll talk.

"Honestly, get a grip, the world hates you. Especially the Arab world. There's a reason every country's people on the planet (except Poland) wanted Kerry to be president"

Maybe I should cry and beg forgiveness and promise nothing but appeasement for the next century. God that would make me a democrat.

In the first place, much of the world hates life, hates their neighbors, hates their leaders and hates those that have everything they want. In the second place, that same world that hates us wants to live in the US more than any other nation, wants to buy US goods more than any other nations goods, wear clothes with US logos, wants to listen to US music, watch US films, etc etc on and on..... Finally, as the leaders of the World, as the dominant Democratic Nation, as the Worlds super-military power, as the worlds richest people - I understand that many will hold us in contempt but unless such contempt is justifiable then there is no reason for us to appease the worst parts of human nature.

Its so funny to be preached to by the failed Emperors children.

"I have had good Arab friends that were so brainwashed when it came to Israel it was depressing and no amount of historical facts would alter their opinion."
So you agree, they perhaps misguidedly, hate both Israel and America?

" And LEGITIMACY is the point if you believe in justice and morality."
I'm not calling America immoral. I'm calling America hated. You are hated. America might, just might, be making the right and just decisions. But you're still hated.

"Oh I see, the evil Jews wanted more land so they decided to forego peace with their loving and peaceful Arabic neighbors and started war after war. Tell you what boyo, read about Israels history and then we'll talk."
Administering land captured from Egyptian/Syrian/Jordanian aggressors is one thing. Kicking out Palestinian civilians from their own homes and land and replacing them with Israeli colonists is ethnic cleansing.

"I understand that many will hold us in contempt but unless such contempt is justifiable then there is no reason for us to appease the worst parts of human nature."
So you agree that Arabs in general, and Iraqis in particular, despise America? Or at least, despise the America represented by George W Bush?

"In the first place, much of the world hates life, hates their neighbors, hates their leaders and hates those that have everything they want. In the second place, that same world that hates us wants to live in the US more than any other nation, wants to buy US goods more than any other nations goods, wear clothes with US logos, wants to listen to US music, watch US films, etc etc on and on..... Finally, as the leaders of the World, as the dominant Democratic Nation, as the Worlds super-military power, as the worlds richest people - I understand that many will hold us in contempt but unless such contempt is justifiable then there is no reason for us to appease the worst parts of human nature."

This paragraph is nothing but bigotted, just about every kind of -centric, assumptive nonesense.

If populations are hating life, its probably because of repressive governments open and secret. That was the claim before going into Iraq.

America has its own 3rd world countries throughout its own borders, and the richest make up no more than 1-5% of the population like in the rest of the world.

When speaking of morality of America, I never hear the word greed mentioned. Last I knew, greed was a sin, just like the jealousy you mention in complaint and contempt of other nations. Greed is capitalism, capitalism is the heart of America anymore.

America is a nightmare for families. With both parents especially young parents needing full time jobs possibly demanding overtime people barely get to see their own kids. Then this means day care, and I don't know if you are familiar with the cost of day care, but for a single parent or not it is outrageous, it tends to equal a monthly rent bill on top of the usual monthly rent bill.

Now, when it comes to the jealousy you mentioned, there is a difference between jealousy and pointing out sinful greed and waste at the cost of the lower classes foreign and domestic. You warp your own thinking calling it jealousy rather than an observation of moral meltdown.

There will be fanatics that through religion alone will be anti-western, but many more will simply be using common sense and reason when calling America morally bankrupt and corrupt, militarily and corporately greedy and abusive.

But since only half of the American population is apparently able or allowed to see anything wrong with America at any point in time, we have this endlessly pointless argument all while ignoring the sources of problems.

"So you agree, they perhaps misguidedly, hate both Israel and America? "

Yes of course they despise Israel. No they do not hate America - they love America - they gave up much to get here and stay here.

"You are hated. America might, just might, be making the right and just decisions. But you're still hated"

I think I explained why pretty well. However, we are also loved to a greater degree and by greater numbers than any other nation on the globe. Lets not forget that either.

"Kicking out Palestinian civilians from their own homes and land and replacing them with Israeli colonists is ethnic cleansing."

I'm both Scotch-Irish and Irish. I know a lot about being kicked out of your homeland or off your ancestral land by a foreign power. The difference is that the Irish did not try to steal British lands and lost - the Irish were never the aggressors. The Brits wanted our lands, our resources and our people as slaves. For 800 years we endured subjugation. The comparison to the Israelis who wanted to live next to their Arab neighbors in peace and endured wars and terrorist attacks simply because they are Jews is not equitable. The Jews took actions that they believed would protect their citizens. Do you know that Arabs living in Israel have a higher standard of living than any Arab populace in the middle east? The Israelis have shown time and again that they are willing to allow the Palestinians to create a nation as long as they are willing to living as peaceful neighbors. Until now the Arabs have shown no willingness to comply. Today's developments are very hopeful and Sharon's intentions (such as removing Israeli colonists) may lead to some stabilization in the region. I also think Bush deserves a lot of credit by demanding such a high standard from the Palestinians.

"So you agree that Arabs in general, and Iraqis in particular, despise America? Or at least, despise the America represented by George W Bush?"

No, I think an extremely unhealthy minority do. But I believe a majority wants to live like us and be like us and have us as their ally.

"This paragraph is nothing but bigotted, just about every kind of -centric, assumptive nonesense."

The only biggotry comes from your hatred for both your own country and the truth.

"Greed is capitalism, capitalism is the heart of America anymore."

Greed is not capitalism. Maybe DT can explain this to you because I fear you automatically ignore anything I say. Capitalism has been proven by history to be the greatest equalizer between the rich and the poor and thus reduces the power of the greedy in the long run. Of course greed is a sin and is rampant, which has more to do with the modern rejection of religion than anything else.

"America is a nightmare for families. With both parents especially young parents needing full time jobs possibly demanding overtime people barely get to see their own kids. Then this means day care, and I don't know if you are familiar with the cost of day care, but for a single parent or not it is outrageous, it tends to equal a monthly rent bill on top of the usual monthly rent bill."

What you described is not any kind af American demand but you previous argument about greed. Those families you mentioned also "require" a very nice house, two really nice cars, a tv in every room, a swiming pool, the best clothes and every new product that is invented. And dont deny that this is an outgrowth of modern liberalism and secularism.

On the other hand they could choose to have one parent work while one raises the kids and live a more modest life, like my sister's family does. Of course their greed and lack of moral grounding blinds them to such a "conservative" lifestyle.