God's Will - Page 6

"No - nor was it God's!"
So, you are saying, that it is just for me to go to prison if my dad steals a car?

" God created Adam and Eve. They were created good and death did not exist in their nature. They chose to rebel and death became an intrensic aspect of nature. Ultimately you can not hold God, in a legal sense, responsible for Adam and Eves future actions."
That has no relation with my question. I asked, how can we know which morality is God's? Especially if someone had no contact whatsoever with the correct messenger.

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Is it really the baby's fault he was once an evil sperm? I don't think a good God can punish you for something which isn't your fault.

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I asked about that same question myself. I added a little bit more to it. God the good father asks his son to be punished for everybody elses sin. And if the son doesn't do this then he cannot sit on his fathers thrown. Why, because God the father is a just God??????

I believe as one Christian at work explained "mother nature caused the Tsunami." Christians don't usually believe in mother nature, so I was very impressed. She says it sounds cruel, but mother nature has to lower the population of humans on the earth. She is right, it is cruel, and mother nature sometimes is. Mother Nature can be cruel, because Mother Nature has no feelings. Mother Nature is simply a program God created to keep all things God created in balance with each other. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

And god had to make a murderous program (and ultimately ineffective)?

He couldn't have just programmed our balls to stop being fertile once population reaches a certain point?

I don't think God using a mother nature solves the problem that God is intentionally letting babies die.

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DT,

"Is it really the baby's fault he was once an evil sperm? I don't think a good God can punish you for something which isn't your fault."

Ahh but we are talking about death and not punishment. You blamed God for introducing death into nature and said that made him unjust. I showed that mankind introduced death into nature and that by no means makes God unjust. Now you are talking about eternal punishment or hell. In the first place neither you nor I could argue that God punished babies that die nor am I arguing that God would punish a baby or anyone for that matter for his father's sins. Jesus himself addressed this issue.

But lets play hypothetical. You asked if you should have to go to prison because your dad stole. I, of course, would say no that would be unjust. But such a comparison is between man and man and not between creator and created. If you create a self-running computer program would you be evil for deleting it if it started running with errors? Since we are speaking about legalities we need to understand the proper context of the parties involved. What does the Creator owe his creation? If the Creator is good then he can not lie to them and should do them no harm. But is the innocent baby you mentioned really the Creator's creation or is it man's creation? If the Creator's creation decided to rebel and the Creator explained the consequence for such an action would be death before the creation committed such treason what does a good and just Creator still owe his creation?

"God created all men."

We can argue that God created nature and God created Adam and Eve but we can not theologically go farther than that.

"From man's point of view, he cannot determine which messenger (and thus which morality) is God's. How are people born in Muslim or even Pagan societies supposed to avoid hell? How can we follow God's morality when we can't tell which one is God's?"

Great question. What if the answer is no one can. In truth that is exactly what the Bible says. No one can ever know God in any moral sense since we are all fallen rebels that spend our lives rejecting him and his morality. Ultimately no one can avoid hell, expect possibly babies and very young children. Furthermore, a just Creator would be required by that justice to send his creation to hell. However, the law also allows for mercy if the crimes are compensated for. So God would have to somehow compensate for our crimes. Thus you have the innocent God-Man who gave his life for his creation and took on their sins in his death. However you still have the problem with who gets the mercy. Of course God couldn't give everyone mercy because then he would no longer be just. In fact he couldn't even give most people mercy because that would also be unjust. So a minority can be given mercy. Thus we have the Biblical doctrine of election.

I am sure this is quite disturbing for many people however the legality is quite sound.

"In the first place neither you nor I could argue that God punished babies that die nor am I arguing that God would punish a baby or anyone for that matter for his father's sins."
I'm glad that's clear. From some of your posts I got the impression that you took the Original Sin seriously.

" In the first place neither you nor I could argue that God punished babies that die"
Interesting. So, to your kind of God, killing babies isn't evil. That does make the system work after a fasion.

Oh dont get me wrong - I do believe in original sin...lol.

"Interesting. So, to your kind of God, killing babies isn't evil. That does make the system work after a fasion."

Of course not because death is a part of nature introduced because of Adam and Eve's rebellion. If you do this death will come - death came - death now is an essential characteristic of nature. You seem to be suggesting that God should now lie and say well I said death would come but now I will supernaturally act and stop all deaths, atleast when it comes to babies (how about scorpions or misquitos)? In fact if God did stop all deaths he would be unjust because we would have evidence that he is a liar.

Nor does death equate to hell which you seem to also be implying.

"Oh dont get me wrong - I do believe in original sin...lol."
"nor am I arguing that God would punish a baby or anyone for that matter for his father's sins."
I can't wrap my mind around paradox.

Thats because you are, I think, equating death to hell. The Bible clearly speaks of different types of death. I think the Book of Revelation talks about the second death, for example. There is physical death and there is spiritual death. Physical death was introduced into nature at Adam's fall and thus death effected all of nature, even galaxies lightyears away. Before the Fall there was no entropy. From my understanding of theology, spiritual death has yet been introduced by God. That will come after the Judgment.

In fact, I think an even stronger argument could be made that God is unjust because he allows animals and plants to die than the human argument though I rarely hear that one made - probably because people like to eat their steaks and chicken with a salad. lol

Well I can understand how God will, for whatever pain an innocent suffers, 'make it up to them' by a better heaven.

However, you can't both believe in Original Sin (the sin of our ancestor) AND in the fact that I can't be punished for my dad's sins?

Also, I need to raise again the issue that, how can God punish us when we don't know which morality is God's?

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OK, original sin is according to my understanding and beliefs the idea that death entered the universe upon Adam's fall and that it stained all of nature. It is also the idea that the Fall brought a change in the nature of man from one that knew only good to one that knows both threreby causing a separation between Creator snf created. Thus all born will die and all that die will be judged. However, during that judgment no one will be found guilty of any offense that they did not commit.

"Also, I need to raise again the issue that, how can God punish us when we don't know which morality is God's?"

Thats an assumption that contradicts from what Scripture teaches. I would direct you to Romans that deals with this very issue.

"Thats an assumption that contradicts from what Scripture teaches."
OK, how do we know which Scripture is true? Koran, Torah, Bible or Confucius' writings?

How can man be punished when he cannot be sure which morality is God's?

"However, the law also allows for mercy if the crimes are compensated for."
And how can man know what is suitable compensation? By read the Bible, Torah or Koran? Which one?

"And how can man know what is suitable compensation?"

The compensation required is not man's decision but the Judge's. Ultimately the one that decides must be God. Only God knew or could possibly know what was required to redeem mankind of their sins since it was His law that we violated. And only He knows to what extent we each violate it.

"How can man be punished when he cannot be sure which morality is God's?"

My point was that Paul gives an answer to that question. He states that God has written on the hearts of all mankind his law (the 10 Commandments) thus inevitably there is a sense were we will be judged by our own conscience. Paul states that man will never be in a position to argue 'I did not know I was violating your law' because those laws have been hardwired into us and if we attempt to make such an argument we will know that its nothing more than a lie. C. S. Lewis writes about this by describing how all cultures share the same morality (not to the same degre).