The Problem of Evil - Page 7

Sorry

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the knowledge of adam and eve, before moses.

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Ah, all things in the garden were acceptable except that all things you may eat but this fruit.
So it would seem so easy even a child could do it?
Books of moses is the first five books in the OT being derived in part from the oral tradition.

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Seems there is room for confusion.

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Ya, hard to know right from wrong, eh?

Astarte, this is the rough and tumble world of discussion and debate. Forgive as God fogives. My poor choices have caused me to sin. As you see, I am not an ardent Bible thumper as most... only a humble pursuant of the philosophy.

It's ok. I just sit on my ivory tower and throw rotted oranges at people who I deem unworthy or disrespectful.

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Sought, when you tried to argue my point about God not taking responsibility for HIS actions and creations, you spoke as though it made sense that while being omnipotent and omniceint and having been responsible for the creation of everything (except evil by some arguments you've made?) that suddenly all sorts of things are not of his doing or control. Namely "evil" in the world.

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"This then brings us to the real issue of the question. Why does God PUT UP with evil in the world. Note at this point in the discussion, the existence of God is no longer the issue. The issue now is dealing with answering the question of God's relationship to the evil in this world. What is evil? To understand the initial question, one needs to acknowledge that evil is not a thing that has substance, but is rather a value judgement of a person's actions. An evil action cannot be seperated from the person committing it. An individual`s actions are evaluated against a standard, and when the action is deemed to be a departure from the standard, it is said to be wrong, or evil."
choice must have existed before the apple as you have pointed out. 'God could not be good ... unless ... there was also evil by which to compare Him. The original temptation indirectly explained that evil was known before man sinned. Gen 3:5 ... For there to be choice, choice must already exist."

what caused the beginning of a contrast to god's initial creation- this opposing force? if satan (the initial being in opposition of god) existed before creation of man, so did the "existence" of a choice?

even though God did not defy himself (indirectly responsible?), he attempted to offer "ways to retribution" on account that something he created deceived another part of his creation

(satan taking extreme advantage of freedom of choice) playing off of and/or creating pride, curiosity, doubt, etc.? God was now driven to a continual state of action in counter-acting the actions of this and others in creation that traded the now "righteous" state for a belief that stance is flawed? (that stance is satan's?) (that same question is asked everyday, still to this day?)

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god has the power to stop evil, to keep any evil act from occuring, or to keep from even deeming things innapropriately as evil to begin with.

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"When God created man kind, he gave man moral freedom, the ability to chose between good and bad. God did not create man morally passive. God intended for man to evaluate between good and evil, obedience and disobedience, right and wrong. If these were not intended in God's design for man, the notion of blame and responsibility for disobedience and praise and reward for obedience would be meaningless. The notion of obedience rooted in love would not be possible. God's purpose in man's creation was to allow for the capacity to chose to love Him. Initially before the fall, man lived in a world where evil, suffering, pain and devestation were not realities, only possibilities. Adam, our representative head, through excercising his moral freedom, relegated the concept of evil from a mere possibility into a reality. The fallen world we live in is the result of man exercising moral freedom. We are reaping the fruit of our first parents excercise of moral freedom."

like you pointed out, it is pretty fucked up that the allowing-of-evil kinda cosequence was the result of this first "pop quiz". "what my father did, ya know it don't mean shit. I'm. NOT. Him." -Conor Oberst

"It is possible for God to eradicate evil from this world perhaps two ways. First, He could annialate a person as soon as he has a thought that is in violation of God's law. Secondly, he could restrict people from the ability to do anything evil. Where would the first option leave you and I? We have violated God's law numerous times since we woke up this morning. The second option would leave man, not as a free moral agent, but rather restricted to act only according to God's moral law when faced with moral decisions. This second option would strip meaning away from virtue. Virtues such as faithfulness, honesty, long-suffering, patience, endurance, etc. would not only be meaningless, but would not be possible.
God's design for man is to develop these virtues in us until we begin to reflect His image. Could God do something about evil? Yes! Does His goodness obligate Him to do something about it? No! His goodness and strength collectively enable Him to use the evil choices of His creation for a good that ultimately brings Him glory, and we, His children the opportunity to share in it."

all things are in his control...if he created, he can destroy? and yet chooses to offer chance after chance for you to decide- for YOUrself?

wizard said, (not only this)

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What if all things in the universe, including ourselves were merely elements of the mind and body of some great conscious being we call God?

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"In Him we live and move and have our being" - Ac. 17.28.

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What if this God were working on himself to make all of his parts more good than evil, waging a war that manifests itself in the deeds of mankind in the universe?

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Rom 7:17-21 declares that "sin is present" in man.
These contrasting forces wage war within us. Rom 7:23
If man did not have God to help him survive (escape) 1 Cor 10:13 & Rom 7:24-25, then the contrasting force of evil would overcome the good force of God. (working on making his creation -a part of himself- more "good" than "bad"?)

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This is not the word of god. God would make more sense, I would hope. And if you think its very clear, there is a world of confusion that begs to differ, and don't try to explain this confusion with the bible, its a hopeless task, and only furthers the confusion because it is one of the biggest parts of the confusion.

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I want it clarified, what is the bibles claim of the source of evil, word for word, as well as the concensus' interpretation?

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using scripture as a proof text for preconceived notions is not the same as "examining the scriptures daily" to see if some things were so, as did some in Acts 17:11. How often have we heard an adult teacher claim that the Bible can only be interpreted one way, i.e. "the true way"... That claim itself is untrue. According to the warning of Paul in Gal 1, man can interpret the Bible anyway he wishes. If that was not true, there would be no need for standards, laws, or Biblical prohibitions. No one is obliged to believe what any man says the Bible says. We are only responsible for "what the Bible actually says".

in theory/

John 14:23-26: Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me. "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 16:12,13- I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

i guess that is a bottom line. i see it as nothing but self-evident mystcism. that is what the bible says however, in response to your request.

speaking of spin on interpretation...

http://www.biblewheel.com/GR/GR_FOL.asp

-i don't know what to say

"'God could not be good ... unless ... there was also evil by which to compare Him."

sounds like an excuse to me, especially when he is allowing this evil which causes US humans endless amounts of unecessary suffering just so he can get some praise.

For these grand lessons there is but one short life to live and learn them. With all the time needed to sort of fact from fiction, which is impossible at this point, would take generations, but even such discovery is hindered by such religious powers as the vatican and any claimed important documents locked away, things like the inquesition destroying the works of man in the name of god.

These virtues you speek of, are but glorifications of natural hardships and struggles meant to further expand belief and dependancy upon a desperate notion.

There has been talk about life having no point or meaning if god doesn't exist or if he is not the good god so desperately envisioned. I say horseshit, I say THAT is not thinking for yourself, that is making grand and rediculous assumptions and forcing them on yourself and others.

I have a challenge for the religious world, stop claiming things, promote the values that actually help one another. You would have a greater more peaceful following if people didn't have to argue against reason within themselves just to try to believe in the good of the world.

Be careful, you have described a very open ended idea of evil, noting a standard. Standards change.

Why would people choose to be condemned?

Because they are evil? Or because they act in accordance with survival? This is all pointless because we forget the forgiveness aspect of these evils and these religions. By many you can sin and commit evil all the live long day, but just be forgiven and poof.

you wanted a fucking explanation derrived from the words taken from the bible that connected things being discussed...

you wanted it so you could claim it is inplausible as truth- agreeing with me that it's not fact? yet still managing to point out the lack of "thinking for yourself" in any of it?

thus reiderating my claim that "No one is obligated to believe what any man says the Bible says. We are only responsible for "what the Bible actually says". if true...

how can that pont be argued any further?

This thread grew so fast. People just need to face the fact man is not responsible for all the evil in the world.

Take a deep breath.

"thus reiderating my claim that "No one is obligated to believe what any man says the Bible says. We are only responsible for "what the Bible actually says". if true...

how can that pont be argued any further?"

Is not the bible claiming itself as truth? Certainly religious organizations are, I hear many parents are telling their children it is.

If true, well that's a big if isn't it, especially when people are trying to legislate interpretations of it while considering it truth regardless of any MISinterpretations.

I don't remember which thread or who all said it, sought and cturtle for sure, but you guys mentioned god wanting us to live a life separate than animals.

As long as we have to kill any living entities to survive, and are forced to copulate to ensure the continuance of the species, the thought of a non animalistic life is a problem. As long as we live under the influence of hormones and chemicals and their survival based hard wiring effects, this is most definitely a problem.

And untill you can come up with a good reason why the human race is somehow in need or deserving of being exalted and protected at all costs and above all other forms of life, and can adequately dissaccociate the human race from such categories as virus, plague, natural disaster, (the source of evil from some accounts), disease, untill these are not the case the debate is irrelevant.

meh.... i dunt belive in god. science rules... pple make the world evil. o that thomas hobbes...
i can be so naiive. (spelling?) u kno what. you pple are so damn intellectual. i love it.

Given the definition of evil being mental and physical anguish caused by natural or by human means, then if a house is flooded out in a rainstorm and a little girl drowns, then how is that evil caused by people?

Religion would probably say its a way of god punishing for your sins.

Further, just because a philosopher says something doesn't make it right. Plato says an awful lot about the soul in The Phaedo, much of which begs the question. He talks about opposites deriving from each other when Plato never considered the possibility that this is just one of many possible worlds, and that in one possible world there may be no opposites at all. You, therefore, must think critically for yourself.

Let us assume that there is no God as Mizz says. And she also says that people are the source of all evil, then how can she explain evil that is not caused by people such as a girl drowning in a flood?