Why Do You NOT Believe In God? - Page 12

If you are assuming that I am "carelessly accepting falsehoods" that is a judgement because my experience isn't something that you want to hear or believe. That's not exactly fair. If your views are valid because of "divine experience and gut feeling" than so are mine and you have to accept that.

I think humble could also be defined as considering the possibility that we are not all that, that there is something above us, wiser than us.

It is true, you have said that you accept things without proof. Only if they have "resonance" or if they fall into your original ideas. But what tells you your original ideas are valid? Its like a pyramid of untested ideas and assumptions, a single falsehood would bring it tumbling down.

" If your views are valid because of "divine experience and gut feeling" than so are mine and you have to accept that. "
But mine are not of gut feeling, they are minimalist. My views are "if we accept this is true then this is necessarily true". At the base I know absolutely nothing for certain. But I have a lot of "ifs" and giving all views equality.

Ifs like "if I assume there can be a christian God, then there can be a Muslim God." Incompatible therefore the consequences of that if contradict the initial IF, hence being impossible."

Another if "if we assume there is a God, then there must be a purpose to the universe or a design". However, that doesnt seem to be the case, so God is assumed false for now.

And I dont know why people might think I seem pessimist. By showing the limits of what we know, we are in fact asserting the extent of what we undeniably know.

My beliefs are not based on assumptions, they're based on experience, just as yours are. You're hearing what you want to hear again. The "resonance" I have referred to is what makes me consider or not consider. If it resonates, I hold onto it and look for experiences and evidence that backs it up. If I find it I hold onto it and add it as part of my truth. If I don't or find evidence that leads me to believe otherwise, I discard it. You seriously have to start assuming you know how I operate without listening to the words that I say.

You said your beliefs were based on divine experience and gut feelings. That is how you said you know they are valid.

I don't see how you are giving all views equality because certain kinds of ideas you write off immediately and quickly without even considering it. Programming? Something you have raised to believe?

What if christian god, muslim allah, indigenous creator and eastern life force is exactly the same thing, just different interpretations. That's what the common thread helps you to find, the truth of it.

"You said your beliefs were based on divine experience and gut feelings. That is how you said you know they are valid."
Nonono. I didnt say that.Or if I did I meant the exact opposite.

"What if christian god, muslim allah, indigenous creator and eastern life force is exactly the same thing, just different interpretations. That's what the common thread helps you to find, the truth of it."
There we would see purpose and design in the universe. Which I do not.

I see designs, I see pretty circles.

In reference to leftwood...

I want what he's having!

DT... So we are it? There is nothing more than us or beyond us, wiser than us? We (us and the world that surrounds us) are as good as it gets?

You said that because there are differences in the moslem god and the christian god then god must not exist. I said that becase there are commonalities that it must hold some validity. If you look for conflict you're going to find conflict... in everything. Conflict is always a possibility. If you go on that basis to find your truth, there won't be much you find to be true. If you look for commonalities it opens up a whole new world of possibilities. If everyone who believes in a divine source of some kind believes that the foundation of that source is love then, in my opinion, that is the truth.

I agree about a general way of people being to choose to ignore reason based on commonalities to the point where they will argue with or even themselves to avoid seeing it, esp in race and religion.

"DT... So we are it? There is nothing more than us or beyond us, wiser than us? We (us and the world that surrounds us) are as good as it gets?"
Just because we are the most wise, doesnt mean we are wise at all.

" If you look for conflict you're going to find conflict... in everything. Conflict is always a possibility. If you go on that basis to find your truth, there won't be much you find to be true."
Its not conflict, its inconsistency. We must be consistent, it is the foundation of truth. And no we wont find much truth, but its "real" truth, not "pretend truth".

"If everyone who believes in a divine source of some kind believes that the foundation of that source is love then, in my opinion, that is the truth."
If the whole wide world believes a lie, that doesnt make it true.

Love is a romantic notion derived of a socio-emotional explanation to a basic survival/procreation instinct. It feels like the strongest emotion for a reason, it is, the basic survival/procreatrion instincts in us are the most powerful internal forces of influence and motivation we have as understood to this point.

Love on the level of a God and us is more closely linked to that love between A human and a pet, which doesn't make sense because we want to talk to our pets, and as an all powerful god that becomes and option, so whats the deal, and don't give me that your not listening crap, god is all powerful, I want to know things he knows this and he can MAKE me hear, there is no room for such uncertainty with an all powerful god, and thats a base argument of mine against religious beliefs

Leftwood... When I talk about love I'm not talking about romantic love, I'm talking about universal love. Which is the foundation of all the good that we find in the world. Acceptance, truth, patience, freedom, trust, on and on. All of that as one unit is love. That goes beyond romantic love.

I'm not sure where the "uncertainty" comes from. Love is everywhere therefore god (if that's what you all it) is everywhere because god is love. Most of our society (as we have talked about) is pretty messed up and runs on anger, revenge, guilt, shame, worry, useless emotions that are a waste of energy. Love and its many manifestations are very quiet so they don't get your attention in the same fashion. Most people walk right past without paying it any attention. But it is EVERYWHERE and in EVERYONE.

If you're sitting in a room and there's a guy in one corner yelling and screaming in anger, and there's someone in the other corner sending love to the room, who are you going to notice? The angry guy guaranteed. Because we are conditioned that way. We are not yet conditioned or know how to notice and listen to love. It's quiet, it's a calmness and a peace of mind that you described beautifully in the euphoric thread. A knowing that everything means something and your worries aren't worth worrying about anymore. It resembles a "nothingness" but it's not nothing, it's the absence of what we now know as reality, crap mostly, replaced with the alternative... love.

That's how I see it.

Or in your words...

"When suddenly all you had to worry about becomes trivial, and all you have to be happy about is so clear and honest and simple, and most importantly feels attainable."

That is knowing and being one with "god" as you call it, "love" as I call it.

" Which is the foundation of all the good that we find in the world. Acceptance, truth, patience, freedom, trust, on and on. All of that as one unit is love. That goes beyond romantic love."
You must give your word a definition. Your version of "love" is the same as "good".

"I'm not sure where the "uncertainty" comes from. Love is everywhere therefore god (if that's what you all it) is everywhere because god is love."
Love is most certainly not everywhere. There is pain, death, suffering in much of the world and for most of history.

" But it is EVERYWHERE and in EVERYONE."
Says you, but I havent seen it! Ive seen romantic love, Ive seen motherly love, Ive seen all sorts of family love, I have not seen this strange "universal love" which is just another word for good.

And regardless, you must show how God must exist. Something which shows that something is ensuring there is good in this world or something ensure this world is designed. I have seen neither.

love isn't usually defined as much more then an emotion experience, meaning beyond the basic nature of emotions as internal guides for survival is where the romantic notion comes into play.

Like DT said you associate love with good, what about the bad, it is required for the good, the god of good made the bad and is responsible for every horrible thing that exists.

God is as much evil as love, for he is the source of both. Which contradicts most religious teachings I do believe, as well as their own credibility

DT...

"You must give your word a definition."
I just did give it definition. If you choose not to see it that is your choice. Love is... god, is allah, is good, is creation, is creator, is universe, is light, is goddess, is refinement. Many things.

"Love is most certainly not everywhere."
That's strictly a matter of perception. If you believe life is crap you'll see, find and encounter crap everywhere you turn.

'There is pain, death, suffering in much of the world and for most of history."
Sure but there is also care for the pain, understanding for the death and acceptance and enlightenment within the suffering... the examples of love in everything is endless.

"I have not seen this strange "universal love" which is just another word for good."
You have to want to see it in order to see it. Like I said if you choose to see crap you're going to see crap. If you choose to see love, you will see love. I guarantee it is everywhere.

"you must show how God must exist."
I must? The fact that love is everywhere is what confirms for me that there is a divine existence, a higher understanding. I can't possibly convince you anything beyond what you believe to be true and am not about to try. How you perceive reality, however horrible that reality may be, is your choice.

Leftwood...

"what about the bad, it is required for the good"
I disagree. I think that good is required for the bad or evil because evil is just the absence of good but not the other way around. I believe that good can exist without the bad, and will one day, absolutely!!! (I can't wait 'cause I won't have to debate it anymore it will just be how it is)

"the god of good made the bad and is responsible for every horrible thing that exists."
The only reason evil exists is because people exist. There is no force outside of our contribution that causes evil. God created man. Man created evil. Therefore it's up to us to change it. And if we don't the only way to rid the universe of evil is to rid the universe of man and it will come to a point where that will be the only option if we don't do something different.

"God is as much evil as love"
Just because god is responsible for evil in the sense that it created man and man created evil does not mean that any evil resides within the entity of god. The more evil we do in our lives the further away we get from the divine entity, because evil and good can't co-exist, at least not in pure form. Where the divine entity exists (on the earth level at the moment very few, if any, places, perhaps mountain tops or ocean depths where people don't go)

How do you explain your experiences of "euphoria"? Where does that come from? What is the source of that feeling?