why do you believe in god? - Page 15

Well said sir, holding onto that crutch is what keeps us from being able to fly.

Wow! "Religion is a crutch" Now there is a statement I never heard before! I am going to give up my belief in God immediately!

Wow, people do hear what they want don't they, and defensively protect that which they don't have faith can sustain itself.

Religion isn't the crutch, your cowardice in failing to challenge your own faith is.

Religion is more like an indoctrination into mental slavery except for those who don't share your failures.

Please excuse my presumptuousness, as I for one am willing to accept that I may be mistaken and out of line in my retorts.

Hello Decius and Ironwood.

I will respond to both of you with one post.

1. Yes, I have heard the "crutch" thing before - about a 1000 times. It is an old and useless statement.

2. I have no fear of its significance because it is insignificant

3. My faith is sometimes strong and sometimes weak. When my faith is strong I try to distrust it to some extent because it is "mine" and cannot be a completely reliable indicator of God's existence and presence. When my faith is weak I also distrust it and try to remember that I trust in God not in my faith.

When you attribute "cowardice" to me in "failing to challenge my own faith" you, of course, are being "presumptuous" and out of line. I have been continually challenging my own faith for at least 45 years, since I was 18 years old. I have been kicked out of teaching at churches twice because of my pro-gay views. I spent 1 1/2 years as a member of Metropolitan Community Church in Miami, in 1985 - 1986 when being pro-gay was still an extremely "anti-Christian" viewpoint in evangelical circles. I have spent years studying many different religions and have embraced Agnosticism and Atheism for myself in my past life. I have been studying, praying, discussing and considering my faith for all these years and continue to do so.

When the statement that religion is a crutch or "mental slavery" one has to wonder how you can ignore the fact that some of the most courageous and brilliant people in history have been believers in God. (Of course, then there was Vlad the Impaler - but let me try to stay on topic). I would never insult you or your intelligence or your courage because you are an Atheist or an Agnostic. I was just being sarcastic about your use of an old, tired term, in itself insulting, which is just silly. I just thought you could do better than that.

Glad you didn't run and hide like so many.

Offhand for me and my interpretation of how the crutch term was used was not so much the classic use of dependence alone, though I can't speak for others.

But rather as a limitation of even faith. Like someone who does not challenge their faith in order to grow but instead clings like a frightened child not taught or naturally brave enough to explore.

You see the difference I would hope.

How I would explain the great minds would be repeating myself, but alas your observationswere clouded by cliche and history, so I will anyway..

It is slavery to those who do fail to challenge, who blindly accept contradictory practices of bigotry and judgement and all the nasty nonsense that so many allow in religions name even though it generally flies in the face of the religious doctrines themselves.

Blind faith is a curse, practical faith has the potential to bring heaven to earth.

If you do not fit the discriptions being chastised, then you need not be offended. As I was not by your rebuke.

But don't expect to get away with mischaracterizations without recourse, your not the only one who enjoys some verbal jousting.

And good for you for standing up for your principles against tyrannical biggotry.

Pardon me. You never said "religion is a crutch" You said "we lose the crutch of security we derive from a committed belief we can rely on". Because of the context I thought you were referring to religion. Isn't this discussion about belief in God?

The statement that religion is a crutch isn't invalid because its is old it is invalid because it is a silly statement that has no valid intellectual basis. I have heard many Christians dismiss Atheism with platitudes about Atheists being afraid to believe in God because then they would have to face the fact that they might face the judgment of God. I dismiss that silliness just the same.

As far as Nazis are concerned, I anticipated this response which is why I mentioned Vlad the Impaler in passing. Did you know that he was the person on whom Bram Stoker based Dracula? And he was a Christian! Of course, there are brilliant people of every persuasion. I was only making the point that belief in God cannot be attributed to stupidity or cowardice (alone!) Sometimes an individuals belief can be attributed to stupidity or cowardice!

My resume means nothing???!! Really?? Ironwood said that I was a coward for failing to challenge my own faith? How can one respond to that other than with one's resume? Geez Louise!

"Can't do better than the truth??!!"Again, Really?? You are that sure of yourself? Talk about faith!! And humility??!!

By the way, as far as humility is concerned, I once taught an entire Term of Bible Class on Humility and everyone received a diploma, suitable for framing, that declared that they had learned humility. I also have a T-Shirt that says, "I BET I AM MORE HUMBLE THAN YOU."

Ironwood
I have to work now so I can't continue this today. I will respond later tonight or tomorrow morning.

Thanks

Ok, I assumed that you were reading all the posts in the discussion.

I'm not agitated. I'm just having fun.

Arbitrary Assumption of Umbrella Theory

Wow! I had no idea I was distorting the discussion - much less in such an incredibly intellectual and complex a manner. I am flattered.

Sorry dbh, you aren't allowed to have fun here anymore unless your posting in some irrelevant thread. You have already made the Nazi's auto hide list. Because decius like to auto run and hide these days.

He prefers to engage robots instead of dynamic human beings to deny his own shortcomings and failures.

He considers himself the steward of truth and true personal development and if you don't regard him as all knowing or challenge his definitive stance on his own behavior, we then you are just crazy and not worthy of his time.

Apparently you aren't allowed to point out his hypocricy, arrogance, and delusional denial. His imperfections either don't exist or can only be addressed by him, so sayeth almighty decius.

His sycophant dawn had the audacity to tell me to take my information elsewhere where it is appreciated because it is polluting here. And that I am ungrateful for challenging the almighty oz because he made this site! Im dead serious.

He is a good kid worthy of saving, but he is dangerous. And since he has influence over other weaker minds he is a danger that must be addressed.

I had some points to your response to him that I will have to come back to if I can.

This thread is about believing in god, but for any debate a definition of god must be made or else what are you claiming belief in exactly? Hence terms like infinity etc.

Religion as a crutch is perfectly intellectually valid. Its not all inclusive of of what religion is but the point is valid.

Religion is a tool, so is a crutch. Its meant to help you stand when you are too weak to stand on your own, like a friend or support system. But if you become too attached and never try to walk without it then you will never be able to walk on your own and it will become a burden.

Do not confuse faith and religion. A belief in god requires no religion and in fact is generally tainted by it. Morals and other teachings such as humility, are not of or from religion. They are independent concepts coopted by religion.

God didn't make you with free with for you to give that away to some mindless group think.

And that's why smarter people don't put faith in the religion itself and manage to prosper in spite of it. They use it as a tool.

Now unfortunately the tool has been corrupted and needs re examining on key issues. As you have seen with your gay rights advocacy. For this is the danger it poses. But it defends itself by claiming such dissent is ungodly etc.

Humility taught by religion, ya, that diploma carries about as much weight as most do these days.

Anyone claiming to have cornered truth and the only true path to salvation is lacking humility. Especially any group that feels the need to force that upon you and potentially cast you out for dissent...ahem, decius, is severly lacking humility.

But belligerantly ignorant hypocricy runs rampant in those who have chosen false idols.

And just because some knows what humility is, this doesn't make them humble, especially wearing such a rediculously unhumble shirt while touting superiority garnered from some rediculous "diploma".

Hello Ironwood
In reference to your last post yesterday

You are correct, of course, that religion as a crutch CAN
BE intellectually valid. I was reacting to the fact that I don't think I hve ever heard it used except in a dismissive manner to simplistically classify all believers as weak and crippled. If you meant it differently then I took offense unnecessarily.

Believe me I do not confuse faith and religion. I myself am naturally a very religious person. I am a religion nut. I love religion - all kinds and brands. Part of what I have had to learn and come to terms with over the years is to recognize when my "religiousness" is polluting my thought process and my faith and becoming unhealthy. My wife helps me alot with that. So I do understand the difference. That isn't to say that religion, when it is practiced in a healthy manner and with good sense, cannot be a good thing.

Humility, of course, is something that we cannot recognize in ourselves because, as soon as we perceive that we are exhibiting humility, it is gone. It is an infinite regression. I know I'm humble, so I am no longer humble, so I know that I know I am no longer humble, so I am humble, etc. etc. etc. That is the satiric message I meant to convey with my diploma and T-shirt, of course.

I have to go now. Pick this up another time.

Recognizing humility does not end humility, flaunting it does. Objective observation is humility incarnate.

Religion can be used positively, but accountability for any judgemental and divisive messages must be addressed.

I can't stand the worlds largest influencers of mind, media, religion, and government, espousing truth and or love (security and peace) while teaching and indeed pushing intolerance, fear, and hate.

Its disgusting and untill they address their crimes against sanity and the resulting wars and hate they foment, they deserve to be treated as current banes on society regardless of their positive potential.

Decius
You said "you have highly destrucive notions in your head, etc."

Are you addressing me? Because if you are not addressing me then I have nothing to say since I don't know what bit your ass.

If you ARE addressing me then I think you might be skipping your medication.

DBH

Ironwood
In reference to humility - you said that "objective observation is humility incarnate". Do you consider this an objective observation? Because, if you do, I think you have proved my point.

Otherwise, I think my part in this little conversation has kind of petered out.

Thanks
David (dbh)