What if..... - Page 2

I would turn into God's Dust to annoy Angel of Death.

Seriously, though, I'd probably refine myself and take away any chances of ever getting tired of being "good" or getting drunk with power.
Then, I'd probably create a utopian society full of happy, healthy people. I'd remove hate, rape, domination, jealousy, envy, etc. Life would be full of emotional rewards that surpassed the ones we achieve by contrasting emotions, love, drugs or perseverence. Life would be good no matter because bad wouldn't exist, and no ones brain would be designed to know the difference.

Uneasy, it's not that easy. Either you create people and giev them free will, meaning they will eventually fuck up and make bad things happen, or you create the "utopian" society you speak of, with no free will, you can't have free will and no wrong.

Also, good would not exist if bad didn't, because there would be nothing to compare it to. IMO, that is why God let the devil become who he is, Adam and Eve ate the fruit to then learn the difference between bad and good, because before that they knew no bad or good, but by disobeying God they created bad.

I disagree UnderDawg.

People would only be subject to the rules of free will if I chose to incorporate an exact model of free will based on this world. If I am God, it means I am creating the mechanisms that power/maintain the world, I am not subject to one atom of this world. It would be a closed system all by itself, a product of me, not a template for me to follow.

If you ask, "What if you were the God of the Bible", then I may agree.

uneasy - you're dreaming. What you create is beutiful, but it is not freewill.

There is a creation story I read once (not in the bible). I think it was the Book of Nicodemis. God the father was going to destroy the humans he had created knowing that they would do evil, having been given freewill. But the Spirit of Wisdom (Holy Ghost) talked him out of it, explaining that the seeds of wisdom have been planted, if he allows them to grow, wisdom will be its fruit. (not a quote). When I read that, I thought, yes, that's what its all about. Throughout life you go through cycles. You wonder, you learn, then you think you know it all, something happens and boom, you realize how stupid you are, and so you wonder. You just keep going through this until you die.

Just as you say the seeds of wisdom will grow its fruit, so would any seed if you bought it at home depot.

In my world, free will would not plant any seeds, nor would home depot provide seeds that grew anything. We're talking about two very different systems of nature, its a world of my own design vs. this world and what you perceive it to be.

I believe that life is the judgement process to see if we are good enough to be with God or not. After that, we will be able to learn from him and become Gods ourselves. Then we can have our own children and do what he does.
We have our own reference to this. 'As man is, God once was. As God is, man may be'.

Were I God, there would be no need for any "saviour". People would live eternally partaking in a "hive mind" with me, and I with them. All is known to them, and all is known of them.
There would be no room for evil is all is rules by one "ultimate" free will. Not mine, but the will of the many.

hey i saw someone talk about the devil and god not being responsible for what happens, because it is obviously the actions of poeple that manifest these things we see.

that's what, at least from what i have read, the bible says. we are tempted by the devil to do his bidding, it offers mental images of him shooting firey arrows at our heads-AFFECTING OR INCLINING our thoughts. God is said to do the same thing, he gives us feelings that have an affect on our final decision.... our final course of action. and apart from the sensed communication he offers a book with thousands of pages filled with allusions unto His truth and intent.
when we place the blame on what envoked the response rather than on what our reaction was to it, it's like trying to explain to your mom the "fact" that the reason you had to hit your brother was because he took your toy. the cause is only partially responsible for the effect. ---- two wrongs don't make a right, do unto others as you WOULD have them do unto you ----
We are His hands and His feet. God needs us to do His work and so does satan. but we make the choice of which of the two will be heard.
lol, it makes sense to me if there's something i am missing let me know

I.S.T.

To beleive in god is soothing, and relaxing. simply because you beleive when you die you will "move on", that, I beleive is the reason people created the "notion" of god, whether he/she is real or not, is of no concern, it's the comfort of beleiving, that in that darkness we call death, theres a light.

All i can telll you is that life isn't full of love or hate, dark, or light, life has it all, enjoy it, and honor everyone you meet, "i beleive", event if you don't go to church every day, or week, as long as you conduct yourself in an honorable, respectful, and proud self,i beleive, "if there is a god, he will be forced to agree with you, "morally'...........Just love each other, fuck it, I don't think god would want us to be sitting around try'n to figure out how, the"creator, of all things", thinks". "PEACE"

Sought, This post of yours is about a month old, how you thinkin on this these days, I noticed your post referring to the influence of god and satan and the "need" as you put it for us to do their work.

Thats some funny shit, seriously, its laughable. I always get a kick at how far my head needs to turn around and inside out at the thought of a declared almighty god needs such simpletons as ourselves for anything other than his sad amusement.

With contradicting concepts such as an all seeing and all knowing and even all controlling god exists yet free will of man exists, and how our lives are deemed everything from tests or experiments to nothing more than a living source of worship, and how that is somehow supposed to indicate great purpose, while also somehow not indicating that either god isn't all powerful and not some egomaniacal massachist who enjoys creating beings and then designing or influencing them to kill eachother and to suffer from nature disasters and plagues. For what again?

Its equally as laughable to suggest anything about god not being evil as well as good, god is the source of and creator all things and therefore he made evil, he made the devil, no angel has power over god, unless he is fallable and not all powerful.

If god wanted us perfect we would be, if god really existed and cared about us in the way we understand then he would most likely say hi.

Its hilarious to me, untill I think of how many people actually believe these things, to think god would make such easily influenced, decieved, and confused beings and then with his almighty power decide to send cryptic messages through outrageous means and other lying humans to get his oh so important message across. He can implant instincts but not enough instinct to get along, to know he exists. He can make us know if he wants us to know. If he was willing to go through the claimed theatrics he would clarify. But if he were god no clarification would even be needed.

I wouldn't really like to be God ... lol

quote:

---

Sought, This post of yours is about a month old, how you thinkin on this these days, I noticed your post referring to the influence of god and satan and the "need" as you put it for us to do their work.

---

uh, if they are spiritual... they just can't pick up a gun and pull the trigger/or pick up a flower and give it in love.

they kind of need us, here in the physical, to do that work for them...
that's where tempting inherent desires is satan's game

and placing the disgust for said desires in the beginning is god's game.

you tend to see only what you focus on... can't be two places at once.

quote:

---

egomaniacal massachist who enjoys creating beings and then designing or influencing them to kill eachother and to suffer from nature disasters and plagues.

---

quote:

---

Its equally as laughable to suggest anything about god not being evil as well as good, god is the source of and creator all things and therefore he made evil, he made the devil,

---

god made things the way they are? with freedom of choice?
to have a choice, you have to have more than one option?

the devil CHOSE to desire the power and thrown of god... he could not have it... he then tries to get as much of what god wants to "get back at him"?

besides... in a parent child scenario.

is the parent going to like the fact that their child does their will when they are forced to?

is that same parent going to be thrilled to no end if the child CHOOSES to do "their will" without being forced to?

you make some good points... is there anything to consider in what i have said though?

Unfortunately not too much, just because of the fact that we have to be careful when generalizing and relating god to humans, as a parent, no living parent on earth is and all powerful being, these statements invoking the weight of such notions as infinite power and the creator of all, knowing all, seeing all, foreseeing all.

"uh, if they are spiritual... they just can't pick up a gun and pull the trigger/or pick up a flower and give it in love.

they kind of need us, here in the physical, to do that work for them..."

If he can create physical beings he can control them, if he is all powerful then anything I say he can do he can, all things are included in terms such as anything.

Was it specified that angels were given free will? Not that I recall offhand. You said satan decided to desire, is that how desire works? Not that I'm aware of.

The free will argument is highly flawed. One, what's the point, why would god offer a choice? If he wants people act a certain way, why would he design them with conflicting desires? To what purpose? Why would he create lying and and deciet and ask us to trust others when they tell of a story that doesn't make sense, conflicts with known reality, and whose good points are so easily scewed and misread and in text and languages that become outdated? Why isn't there a universal god language so we can understand and know we understand, instead of the notion of cryptic messages and mysterious ways. Thats just superstitious rationalizing that every culture naturally does attempting to explain the world around them>

What does god gain from us? No, he doesn't need us that's silly, no all powerful being needs anything, it contradicts the idea of all powerful. For us to worship? Why? To stroke god's ego? God is above human emotion so I hear.

Its not to find out what will happen in a grand experiment, god already knows all and has written all destiny, as he must, for no creation under god can have power over god, for god is all powerful.

If it were more clear what is actually right and wrong this wouldn't be such a problem. Especially according to relgion, the person who decides ultimately what is right and wrong is god, and we are supposed to follow that, well we don't have adequate intelligence or communication with god for such information to be substantiated.

God can make it clear to us, no devil of god's creation can overpower the information or power of god.

These ideas of a powerless all powerful god are what undermine your argument.

quote:

---

"These ideas of a powerless all powerful god are what undermine your argument." ...since... "God can make it clear to us, no devil of god's creation can overpower the information or power of god."... "If he can create physical beings he can control them, if he is all powerful then anything I say he can do he can" ...so... "what's the point, why would god offer a choice? If he wants people act a certain way, why would he design them with conflicting desires?"... "Why would he create lying and and deciet"... "Why isn't there a universal god language so we can understand and know we understand"..."If it were more clear what is actually right and wrong this wouldn't be such a problem. Especially according to relgion, the person who decides ultimately what is right and wrong is god, and we are supposed to follow that, well we don't have adequate intelligence or communication with god for such information to be substantiated."

---

i have to say something back. it's going to be along the lines of religious views (which are subject to your own interpretation).

the undermining value of my argument is the value of free will, in your opinion. but as you said later anything you say he can do, he can. VICE VERSA. and again, like you have said, no devil of god's creation can overpower the information or power of god. this still stands, they can not... but they can use lies and deceit to transition the focus on the "truth of god" to the "lies of satan".
the lie is truth based, the only thing that seperates the two is the destructive or rewarding effects received when you "reap what you sow" as a result of acting upon either of the two influences... through your CHOICE.

we first think before we choose. everyone has many different thoughts. many different reasons for choosing what we do. everything, even not choosing, is a choice.

how is the freedom of this EVIDENT choice not applicable to the world we live in... and since it IS so prevalent in EVERY aspect of our lives, anything to do with a truth concerning a god MUST have something to say about it.


and about the way i put "satan decided to desire"...

maybe that was wrong of me to say it that way, i apologize.
to clarify: (please read all of it)

http://www.mantelet.org.nz/vitality02.htm