The Meaning of Living - Page 4

Then why do you keep trying to disprove it?

Because we refuses to believe that we, and the rest of life, were created by freak accidents.

The truth doesn't have to be pretty.
I think we are a necessary accident.

The fact that we cause the evil, and not God, is not a pretty fact either.

Anything discussed in these forums have yet to be seen as a truth.

I still hold this point of mine:

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For a universe to exist, there has to be people. That is what you are saying. Otherewise, the entire universe would be over as soon as it began.
The thing about that is, without people, the universe then would not exist at all, people or not. There would be nothing, no such creation at all. Can you imagine that? It kinda scares me in a away. No universe.
For the freak accident to be necessary, there would be something that needed it. The universe needs us so that there is not nothing. If you get that.
As I say again, I did not grow out of a petri dish.
The universe needs us to exist, but we had to have come from somewhere infinite.
The universe would have lapsed before we were created because of time. It alone did not exist without people so it could not bring itself into existence, namely, it could not create us. There had to be something eternal, infinite, constant. That essence is God. To which, there is no beginning and no end.
God is crucial for the universe to exist.

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You said

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"For the freak accident to be necessary, there would be something that needed it."
Existance needs it. I am assuming that something must exist (perhaps it is wrong?) The idea of complete non-existance seems so impossible. So, I am going off the principle that something must exist, and that for something to exist, it must exist for a conscious being.
So the need for existance is what causes life.

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You said that "something must exist, and for something to exist, it must exist for a conscious being. So the need for existance is what causes life."

You did it again. You in some way through your mind hinted, subconsciously stated, or whatever you did, to bring a point of God existing into your beliefs.

That thing that creates life must be with the universe from the unexplainable beginning and end, otherwise the universe would follow it's pattern to stay as a neutral.
If the universe has a requirement for it to be thought about to technically exist, then there must be life indeed. But where does that life come from?
It must come from an eternal force. We are not so eternal as that, for we are not constant. The universe itself can not create us without being a life itself. We would have had to be with it eternally.
How about this:
Our existence is not the freak accident of the universe, because life and intelligence had to be born from another thought, the eternal thought. This eternal thought is where we came from.
God is the so called "freak accident".
God is that life causing thing you brought up. God is the freak accident that was with the universe from it's dawning, and shall stay till it's dusk. Through this, he can not just exist himself as the life the universe needs, but be eternally constant in bringing life alive.

Now, here is another thought. Say God needed something to think about him to make sure he existed to, otherwise his existence would be futile and thus so the universe.
I say... man and woman did not gain their differences from evolution.

"The fact that we cause the evil, and not God, is not a pretty fact either. "
Well I disagree with that too, silply in the name of plagues and earthquakes But lets not start that one again.

"That thing that creates life must be with the universe from the unexplainable beginning and end, otherwise the universe would follow it's pattern to stay as a neutral."
The 'thing' that creates life, is not a conscious entity. What creates life is any and all universes who have which allow life. Given the arbitrariness of so much of our universe (quantum mechanics, 3-11 dimensions) it seems to me that this fits rather well.
There can be any number of arbitrary things in our universe (and indeed there would be if the only condition for existence is life) so long as there is life.

It is not an intelligence, no more then genetic modifications of each new generation are intelligent. Nonetheless genetic modifications can lead to animals which are practically designed for something by eliminating certain modifications.
The same would be true with universes (except for heredity), because of the existance principle I have tried to show, universes who don't have life are 'eliminated'. Rather, they never exist, but its the same principle.
Neither of these eliminations require intelligence, but the result can be something which looks like design and intelligence.

If we were created by accident, then it is logical to assume that with just a little bit of knowledge we can easily replicate this accident. Seeing that I don't believe we are very smart, we just might be able to manage this. But then, we will never know, as none of us will ever live for billions of years.

I believe that to believe we were created by accident has no more logic then it is to believe we were created by God. Neither can be proven, and to argue such will only lead one to anger and not increased knowledge.

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The 'thing' that creates life, is not a conscious entity. What creates life is any and all universes who have which allow life. Given the arbitrariness of so much of our universe (quantum mechanics, 3-11 dimensions) it seems to me that this fits rather well.
There can be any number of arbitrary things in our universe (and indeed there would be if the only condition for existence is life) so long as there is life.

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Still, you do not explain how life exists.
It may be required, or needed, and made by freak accident that was necessary. But what was that freak accident?
The freak accident had to be constant with the universe for it to exist, for the universe follows the pattern in starts with.

Who said earthquakes and plagues are evil? You would probably say that they bring death so they are evil, but then again, why is death evil. I think suffereing is something we must go through to gain perfection.

But still, okcitykid is right. We keep fighting but never get anywhere. And I think we both hold so firmly to our ideas that we are like two warriors who were so worried that we would be unbalanced, that we bound our feet to the floor. Now, we can do anything but blow at eachother.

I was adopted at 2 and raised in a strict Southern Baptist family in a rural town in the heart of the U.S. My family and I attended church every Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday nights. I was signed up for "Vacation Bible School" 2 weeks every summer and "Church Camp" as I grew older.

My parents did not let me to attend dances or date until I was 16. (I was driving before I was allowed to date.) AND, my parents voted Republican!! !!

Needless to say, I'm a liberal agnostic now. So much for the hyprocrosy of good Christians. Bush is a fine example of crusading to "Christianize" these 3rd world countries when they view Bush as a murderer and liar. Do you ever see a connection with all of these religions? People world-wide are massacred daily over religious beliefs. What ever happened to "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Or, "Pray for your enemies?" Fundalmentist Christians are the worst group as far as judging others. I don't care if a neighbor, relative, or a friend of mine is a Christian--just spare me of hearing about it...I'm saving my soul!

[b]

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I was adopted at 2 and raised in a strict Southern Baptist family in a rural town in the heart of the U.S. My family and I attended church every Sunday morning, Sunday evening, and Wednesday nights. I was signed up for "Vacation Bible School" 2 weeks every summer and "Church Camp" as I grew older.

My parents did not let me to attend dances or date until I was 16. (I was driving before I was allowed to date.) AND, my parents voted Republican!! !!

Needless to say, I'm a liberal agnostic now. So much for the hyprocrosy of good Christians. Bush is a fine example of crusading to "Christianize" these 3rd world countries when they view Bush as a murderer and liar. Do you ever see a connection with all of these religions? People world-wide are massacred daily over religious beliefs. What ever happened to "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Or, "Pray for your enemies?" Fundalmentist Christians are the worst group as far as judging others. I don't care if a neighbor, relative, or a friend of mine is a Christian--just spare me of hearing about it...I'm saving my soul!

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I have heard this happening to a lot of Baptists.
Theoretically the Baptists have the most difficult theological understanding. I say this because they teach on fear, and more so on hell fire and somehow make God out as a bad guy of sorts.
Now, God should be feared. But the fear one should have for Him is awe and reverence. Hard to conjure up these emotions at today's pace. Folks have no respect for others. Let alone Our Creator.

Look at it this way, Kat, you need to let go of the hurtful things you learned and give faith a chance. Find a religion that would show you love and what it means to know God. As best we can.

Don't give up on God, He won't give up on you.

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Bush is a fine example of crusading to "Christianize" these 3rd world countries when they view Bush as a murderer and liar. Do you ever see a connection with all of these religions? People world-wide are massacred daily over religious beliefs. What ever happened to "Judge not, lest ye be judged." Or, "Pray for your enemies?" Fundalmentist Christians are the worst group as far as judging others. I don't care if a neighbor, relative, or a friend of mine is a Christian--just spare me of hearing about it...I'm saving my soul!

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I'm not an agnostic or liberal - but I lean twords that way. But I do know how you feel. I imagine there are some conservatives who feel the same too. I didn't at first think this was a holy war, a war over religion. But as I ran polls on e-thepeople, I began to realize it is all about religion. Sad, very sad. You can't fight against religion. We can try. If God came down from the sky and said, "stop that." They would accuse him of being the devil. Most of Americans believe our boys and girls our over there protecting our country by fighting terrorism over there. They know that this is an utter out right lie, but they choose to believe this because they are not Christian, therefor, they are the enemie. It's scary - we have gone nuts. Anyways. I wrote this poem long ago, now I can see what this poem is about.

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/frmid=15-u-thrdid=23349

I admit I am conservative. Bush has his problems, but he is the most christian leader we have had in a long time.
As for war, if I must quote how it is part of God's plan, then I suppose I must.
Will not do this, unless you need a the proof.
But know, that when Jesus does speak to Peter about the sword, he was referring to the individual.

But, although I once voted Democratic, I have since changed my views. They were against all I held sacred. It is my opinion of course.

Dreamer - I replied to this post earlier and once again it was deleted - I'm growing tired of this place.

Anyways - I can understand you feeling the way you do. Clinton was a very bad apple. 9/11 and our current war in Iraq may not have occured if it were not for the carelessness of eight years of Clinton who gorded himself on all the self pleasing apitizers available to him without a care for the world. It is strange now how we have the complete opposite. A man with tunnel vision who will take this nation down with his self righteous dream, Lost in self delusion, unable to see the real inspiration (greed).

I know the old scriptures. But old is what they are. You are 37, surely you have noticed some things, like the change in our weather patterns. Our earth is in trouble and we are responlible for its upkeep. I ask, If you were God and you were the creater of earth and all its creatures, would you be disturbed if it was in trouble. A God who gets jealous.

In them old scriptures men fought with spears and didn't do to much damage to the earth. But today our potential is frightening and we should, in todays world, avoid war at all cost.

Glad you know about the old testament. Which actually provides proof that although Jesus came to change the Mosiac laws, he did NOT come to change God the Father..
As for war, it is unfortunately a way that God deals with unruly nations.

I pray all the time for peace. I will not cease. But it is written, that when the Apostles questioned the end times, Jesus told them, there would be wars. There would be plaques, and famine. Like a fig tree blossoming in the Spring, the signs will be evident.

Can we stop this? Prayer is the major factor, and if I might interject, returning to church. Church is not a mere building, but an established community wherefore all of God's people (Sheep) come together to worship and glorify the Lord. And in their midst HE shall be.

Church is a place for all weak mortal men, where they come to draw renewed, and to ponder that which is taken for granted in all phases of life. The mysteries of God. The love we are supposed to have for one another starts in our solemn understanding of the bible, and of the community we find in one another. That is what church is. LOVE.

Now, I digressed, pardon.

As for the war, I am not a war monger, as I worry for those over there, but I understand if God wants war, it will happen.
As for Bush, I see him as the lesser of two evils.
WE are already in this war, if we step away, we do NOT know the consequences.

Leaving a young Iraqi democracy would be failure.

However, read Revelations.

Chapter 18 would be very enlightening. BTW, there are ONLY
22 chapters. So, time is closing in. When, and how, is not for us to know. Just be prepared.
Peace!

And pray for peace everywhere, and for the hearts of men to soften and yeild to love. If only these misinformed terrorists would seek peace, this war would end.
Pray for this.

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I replied to this post earlier and once again it was deleted - I'm growing tired of this place.

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I want to apoligize for what I have said. The Captain has been great, I have been given a very important oportunity to express myself, it is nice, and I should not complain over technical problems, stuff happens, we make do.

Dreamer - I believe in the Catholics interpretation of revelations. They believe it was meant for a time way back when, written in encrypted language so that the Romans would not understand it if they should find it.

Carter, I believe was the most Christian president we have had in my lifetime, even today he continues to help the poor, and you have more faith in our country than I do, maybe, because I've seen more uglyness than you have. We don't care about Iraq, don't nobody fool you. Why do you think gas prices are going up now, and all of a sudden we are discovering there is a shortage. Do you think we didn't know. We are not there to free the Iraqi people. We are there to control the oil. And I hope after we have drained all the oil out of Iraq, we don't leave those people in poverty. You don't think they don't wonder about that. I've grown up with all the ugly stories of Vietnam. Our country can be cruel and stupid to its own people, let alone, Iraq. A select few become rich while everyone else pays the price. That's whats going on, I doubt God has anything to do with it.

Another reason we have higher prices at the pump, is the fact america needs the oil refined, so it does not emit the dangerous fumes.

But, even as Jimmy Carter may be christian, Bush is still a refreshment after Clinton.

Needless to say, America has freedom at stake in Iraq. We turn in into a democracy, and we do NOT have to worry as much about who is in power.
America is not stupid. We need to watch our backs.

Iraq as a democracy is self serving in some ways. but of service in others.
This is NOT Vietnam, Okcity. This is terrorism. The root of evil.
Revelations is what is to be 'revealed'. It was written in the guises it has, so mankind could not pinpoint the end times.

As for the Romans, they were trying to convert them, so it really would have been more helpful to show them the revelations. However, all the things revealed to John, are sealed from us.

Kinda like God saying, NO cheating on the FINAL exam.