I need absolute Proof

That we have no God in the universe.
I have been asked time and time again to proove He exists.
Now, to turn the tables, I beg to see how an aethesit can answer how we have no proof of God.
I want scientific absolutes.

I want you to go into a realm of your imagination, and pull out what life would be like without religion, and faith.

Tell me how the law and order would be.

Thank you.

No one can give you absolute proof against God.
But then, I can't give you absolute proof against purple elephant Gods on Jupiter.
Should I believe in purple elephants?

I'll take a stab at this question through something I learn in a Philosophy class from Leibniz's principle of necessity. You can take it for what it is worth.

The principle basically states that there is a reason for everything even if we do not know or understand that reason. If our reality exists then there is a reason/cause for its existence. Whether that reason is God, a "big bang," call it what you want to, the notion is based on the idea that fact follows from reason, which is where Leibniz may be wrong.

If this principle is true I guess the question becomes, does fact follow from reason, or does reason follow from fact. Do we know it and therefore it exists, or does it exist and therefore we know it? If you really get into the issue/debate the answer is not as obvious as it seems.

Suggested reading: Euthyphro by Plato, Libnez, Kant, Phenomenology, and Epistemology

**Euthyphro is a short (25 pages or so) story by Plato about Socrates and the character Euthyphro. The same issue is raised as is brought up here: Do the Gods love something because it is good, or is something good because the Gods love it?

Dumbteen, this is not a debate about 'what if's' I am in need of where aetheists get their beliefs, or rather lack of belief.
I need to be shown why they disbelieve.
I want them to show me evidence of the Bang theory.
I want proof we evolved from an atom going off in mid air one day.
I want proof my dna stemmed from the same rocks and dirt that also created ameoba's, frogs and spiders.
I want to know how I am different than animals that came from the same ground.
I want to know why we have diversity in the universe, all from a simple non catalystic explosion that over millions of years gave us a great variety of animal and mineral and vegetable.
This is an awesome explosion and I need to know how it happened.

In order for me to see your points of view, I want proof.

I have explained HOW God exists, but I really would like someone to show me how we would 'relate' to one another without the man made religions. Or the Bible....bibles

Not so simple is it?

rshultz

quote:

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If you really get into the issue/debate the answer is not as obvious as it seems.

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Yes, that is true.
It would seem aetheists demand proof of God so often, now I just need the same from those who oppose God.
Thank you the philosophy.

How would we relate w/o religions? Well, I guess we would relate the same way we did before there were religions whenever that time may have been. I myself am a-religious but I'm not necessarily convinced by the theory of evolution either. My problem with evolution of our species is this:

If we evolved from apes and there were a number of species (i.e. – homoerectus, homohabilis, etc) that existed between us (homosapiens) and apes and both apes and us (homosapiens) are still around, then where are all the rest of those evolutionary links? There had to be at least some that survived.

I doesn't make sense that the 'lowest' and 'highest' forms of the species still exist while at the same time the evolutionary steps in the middle of the evolution of our species can only be unearthed as fossils.

Be as simple as it may, the principle of necessity is proof of the existence of God but this evidence has a problem and that is that it becomes a paradox w/o sufficient explanation.

What kind of proof are you looking for Dreamer? Do you want physical, scientific, cultural, logical proof? All are different versions of 'proof' and all deserve attention.

If you are looking for inconsistencies in your own view about God here is one resource you can utilize:

http://www.philosophers.co.uk/games/god.htm

"Dumbteen, this is not a debate about 'what if's' I am in need of where aetheists get their beliefs, or rather lack of belief.
I need to be shown why they disbelieve. "
I see my analogy wasn't terribly good. I don't believe in God for the same reason I don't believe in purple elephants. I've seen no evidence to indicate they exist (or no good evidence).

"I want them to show me evidence of the Bang theory.
I want proof we evolved from an atom going off in mid air one day.
I want proof my dna stemmed from the same rocks and dirt that also created ameoba's, frogs and spiders.
I want to know how I am different than animals that came from the same ground."
You can study these subjects yourself. The Big Bang is confirmed both by our expanding universe and background radiation (relic of the big boom) in all space.
You're DNA is extraordinarily similar to frog's, spider's etcs.. The fossil record points to a direction of evolution (gradual change, through time, wiping out of species who can't cope with change).

There is proof for all these things if you take the time to study them (besides the fact that many of these theories have practical applications which make them hard to deny, like GMed tomatoes, growing human hormones in bacteria)



rshulz - " There had to be at least some that survived. "
They're called chimps
There were some other modern men (neanderthals for example), all of these have been wiped out with our coming (homo sapiens sapiens). Kinda shows we haven't changed much since then.

"This is an awesome explosion and I need to know how it happened.

In order for me to see your points of view, I want proof. "
Well they don't pretend to know. What IS certain is that it happened (certain is a rather dangerous word), parts of it are unclear.

", but I really would like someone to show me how we would 'relate' to one another without the man made religions."
Men existed far before men decided to believe in Him. Societies worked just fine before before people decided to believe in Him. And today, many societies are pagan/atheist/bhuddist and men can relate together just fine.
It seems only christians believe only fear of Hell is what keeps people from doing evil.

"I have explained HOW God exists,"
The trouble is that there is a rather serious double standard. Even IF we assume there is no evidence for all the science that contradicts the Christian God (Genetics, Big Bang), well that still leaves an aching question : why believe in God?
What proof is there? Can we experimentally test it and prove like with the Big Bang's background radiation? Can we confirm it through practical application like genetics?
No we can't, that is the issue. You have double standards. You are ignoring the evidence for science, and are believing by default that God is the correct belief.

Now, if you have seen God act in your life through dreams, miracles, prayer answering (whatever) then you're belief in God is totally legitimate.
However, don't pretend that we atheists are denying the obvious. There is no objective reason (which everyone can know) to believe in God. If God has not acted in my life, revealed himself, then I cannot believe in Him.
Simply because He has apparently chosen to not give the human race enough evidence.

I like the thought about reason, and there being a cause to all things.

A thought to think, I think, would be what that cause is, and if God exists, as I believe he does, why does he?

Elemental - Good question, I think I've asked that once myself.

You can't prove to me that there is a God. You can't prove to me that there isn't a God.

It makes perfect since to me that there is a God and it makes perfect since to you that there is not, but neither is fact or fiction, proven or disproven. It's all a matter of faith. Either you believe or you don't believe.

A man considered to be most wise, Einstien. He believed there was a God and also believed in evolution and the big bang theory, but not even he could prove it.

Einstein was smart enough to not take chances. But the bang theory is not very logical. And aetheists believe they live by logic.

True, I have yet to see absolute proof God is non~existent.

But, to myself, I see everything as proof. Must be why in times of trouble, I am still able to cope, and carry on. I have something to work it through for.

Many times despair consumes, and to have faith and a belief, carries you through the toughest times.

" But the bang theory is not very logical. And aetheists believe they live by logic."
Stop spouting random statements. It is far more logical, has facts backing it up, then say, some random entity decides to create everything and give us a book with so many innaccuracies and insults its not even funny.

"True, I have yet to see absolute proof God is non~existent. "
Would you even read my post. Its incredibly foolish to believe in something when the evidence doesn't either say yes or no. Its like a trial where someone is guilty until proven innocent.

I think the term, "Big Bang Theory." Is a bad term. It makes it all sound very uncomplicated. If it was so uncomplicated then why are men and women of such high education working on it.

I don't know all the details of the big bang theory, I can only guess that it is very complicated. But this much I do know about it is that it has led many scientists to believe in God. I had read an article in Time magazine endorsed by several scientist explaining that science has accepted the existance of God based on findings from the big bang theory because of things they cannot explain and that Einstein may have been smarter than they realized.

Stop spouting random statements. It is far more logical, has facts backing it up, then say, some random entity decides to create everything and give us a book with so many innaccuracies and insults its not even funny.

"True, I have yet to see absolute proof God is non~existent. "
Would you even read my post. Its incredibly foolish to believe in something when the evidence doesn't either say yes or no. Its like a trial where someone is guilty until proven innocent.


Show me the facts that back it up.




I don't know all the details of the big bang theory, I can only guess that it is very complicated. But this much I do know about it is that it has led many scientists to believe in God. I had read an article in Time magazine endorsed by several scientist explaining that science has accepted the existance of God based on findings from the big bang theory because of things they cannot explain and that Einstein may have been smarter than they realized.


Einstein was a phenomenon. And since scientist probably have sought an explanation I already stated in another thread, that it would seem irrelevent to conclude a varied species aggregate would be compliant to the same source beginning. Thanks Okcity.

"Show me the facts that back it up. "
Listen, I'm not your teacher. I don't have the time or motivation to explain to you a theory which you can very well learn yourself.
Just type in in google and you'll get something.
But all this is besides the point, the big bang theory doesn't contradict the idea of God, only the God of a Bible taken litteraly. The man who created the theory was a roman catholic priest!

That's not the point, scientific theories may contradict some interpretations of the bible (evolution VS creation for example), but they very rarely contradict the idea of God (there was once a theory that the universe had been around forever, obviously causes problems with creation)

There you have it. There is no absolute proof against God, only absolute proof against archaic and once widespread interpretations of the Bible (all of genesis, earth is the center of the universe etc..).

Now, just because there is no proof against God, that doesn't mean God exists. However, given your statements, I doubt your going to even try to understand my arguments, so I'll leave it that.

Listen, I'm not your teacher. I don't have the time or motivation to explain to you a theory which you can very well learn yourself.
Just type in in google and you'll get something.
But all this is besides the point, the big bang theory doesn't contradict the idea of God, only the God of a Bible taken litteraly. The man who created the theory was a roman catholic priest!

So, in other words, there are no facts. That is fine.
And further, what reason would a priest or anyone ever have to 'make up' God?
To give people an illusion? To make sure they have hope? Perhaps to give credence for their existence?
Maybe you need to look at Google, and discover when GOD was in our lives. IT was NOT started by a Catholic Priest.
I do believe God existed before any perticular faith did. Before the Jews, as they were slaves in Egypt, before Moses was assigned to freeing them.


That's not the point, scientific theories may contradict some interpretations of the bible (evolution VS creation for example), but they very rarely contradict the idea of God (there was once a theory that the universe had been around forever, obviously causes problems with creation)

The very concept of the universe being around forever prooves God is in existence. He is the Alpha and Omega, has always been and shall always be. Same as the 'universe. Which is as vast as He. Existed as long as He. It actually gives positive proof He exists. Because for a REASON He created man. For His own reason, He choose to put our life in His surroundings. Are we the center? No idea. Because the immeasurable and unending universe. Therefore, if we are a center to endless eternity, it would only be in OUR view of how WE feel we should be.

There you have it. There is no absolute proof against God, only absolute proof against archaic and once widespread interpretations of the Bible (all of genesis, earth is the center of the universe etc..).

If I were in the position of God, which is impossible, but hypothetically if I were, I would make it known that I created people too. I would also give law and order to people. We all know that in a blackout people are quite disorderly.
God is beyond wisdom. You might call His word archaic, but it shall stand for all time. The heavens and the earth shall pass away, but His word will not.
Even if every bible were destroyed on earth in the apocolyspe, His word is infinite. We cannot change that fact, but we have it because He deems it so.

Now, just because there is no proof against God, that doesn't mean God exists. However, given your statements, I doubt your going to even try to understand my arguments, so I'll leave it that.

So says you, and you are the only one who will be present at your judgement. Best wishes.

"So, in other words, there are no facts. That is fine. "
I gave you facts earlier and you ignored them : background, radiation, the expansion of the universe for example.

" IT was NOT started by a Catholic Priest. "
The theory of the big bang my dear, not God, was thought up by a roman catholic priest (to be precise he called the primeval atom theory, it was the Big Bang's forrunner)

"And further, what reason would a priest or anyone ever have to 'make up' God?
To give people an illusion? To make sure they have hope? Perhaps to give credence for their existence? "
They made it for the same reason scientists today offer new explanations : its what they thought was true. We have new ways of thinking, new protocols, new intruments and new facts.
THerefore, our explanation for the way the universe works must change!

"The very concept of the universe being around forever prooves God is in existence."
No quite the opposite. The universe was supposedly created by God at a specific time and has not been around forever. Some scientists fought the idea of the big bang very hard because it was too deist.

" You might call His word archaic, but it shall stand for all time."
Some of it won't. Things like, immolating homos, killing zoophiles (as opposed to ridiculising them), executing adulterers are already considered backward.
All of Genesis has been proven wrong, and has been abandoned for all practical purposes.
Not to mention things in the new testament, like women having to pray wearing a veil and shaving them if they don't.

No, the bible may live forever, but much of it will be (and has been) ignored because our cultural values have changed since it was written.

"Now, just because there is no proof against God, that doesn't mean God exists ... So says you,"
Well yes. Do we have any evidence against purple elephants? No we don't, but that doesn't mean we should start putting them in children's books just in case.

and you are the only one who will be present at your judgement. Best wishes."
And if I were as bigotted as you I would say : "I'm happy you're going to die with the sweet illusion of heaven on your mind."
Please stop acting as if I'm ignoring the obvious.