Free Will - Page 3

well how do you know you control the mind? theres no physical evidence for it, i mean. the brain acts according to how the environment and genetics programs it to act, like a super advanced computer. i realize that we dont understand everything about the brain yet, but i am assuming(yes, assuming) that it works like any other physical thing, based on cause and effect and doesn't have any kind of visibly mystical aspect about it, or anything that breaks the laws of physics. if this is true, then it is programmed by the environment and genetics much like a computer. the mind is separate, and is not a physical thing. the two work together somehow, and there is no physical evidence that anything controls the brain but the environment. the brain acts in ways that are fairly predictable, at least on a general scale: it chooses things that seem to be the right or correct thing to do, based on what the brain deems as beneficial to some good. now the mind feels in control of the brain, but is that control genuine, or is it an illusion? i mean, the mind can get all kinds of feelings from the brain--happiness, sadness, even chemicals in the brain can cause a person to be depressed or overly happy. so how do we know that this control that we seem to have isn't just an illusion given to the mind by the brain?
a person could say, ok, there are two things for me to choose. i could choose either one. and then they choose the thing, and looking back they could say, yeah, that was free will, i could have chosen the other one too. yet, they didn't choose it. and if man had the ability to analyze the brain completely im sure he could have come to the conclusion that that choise, in retrospect, was entirely predictible.

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well how do you know you control the mind?

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The mind is us. We control ourselves. That cerebreal cortex is our thoughts that we make. Ever take psychology? There is the Cerebreal cortex on the outside of the brain, and it is stated that that is our own open thought process. The rest of the brain signals are for the drives to eat, sleep, and such.
There are parts of the brain that have actually been sectioned out for emotions.
But, about these emotions, psychology believes that the one's self can condition the emotions- that is, one's cerebreal cortex can think and act upon that thought to create a conditioner for an emotion. One's self is in control of one's emotions.

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theres no physical evidence for it, i mean.

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The mind is the physical thing.

Kay, here is the thing to this. If the brain controls me, then it controls what I think. And because "I think, therefore I am", I exist through me thinking. So, for you, as my thoughts are controlled by my brain, I am my brain.
The brain itself has to make decisions on what chemicals and how to react to things. Thus so, I am my brain, but instinctively I breathe, I laugh, and I do not have to think about that because it is instinctive.
If my brain controls what I think, than I am my brain. My brain has free will though.

well, i dont think the mind and the brain are the same thing. they do work together though, in unison. which is in control i cant say, or even if a physical thing can control an abstract thing, or vice versa, or if cause and effect even work the same way with abstract things as they do with physical things.
the mind is an abstract thing--you cant find it anywhere in the brain.

To be more specific, yes we have a brain and the part we call the mind. But to know that the brain has different sections within it, to serve different purposes.
The cortex, the medulla. Basically put it this way, we have a memory, a section for balance, a section for reasoning, a section for breathing, and various other parts that work within the confines of the 'mind' aka 'brain'.

The part where we reason, think, and contain memories are the part we control with free will.
The parts where you must have it functioning without thinking about it, are the balance, breathing, controlling heart beating...etc.

Does this simplify why we still have free will, but yet we cannot completely control our brain.

Free will is part of the 'personality' character and how they use it. Some choose to love others, some prefer to be a hermit, some are jealous, some are kind...these are all personality traits that make up the rationale to the individual.

Therefore, we are all different, even though we all have a similar organ in our craniums.
If we did not have free will, we would all think exactly the same, and we would be null and void of choices.

Peace out.

the choices we make are based on how the brain has been wired. every choice is predictible(hypothetically), because the brain is a physical thing and made like a computer, and every action a computer does is predictible(hypothetically), as are all macroscopic physical things. just because we are conscious of one part of our brain and not another does not prove that we have free will over our brain. it just proves that we are at least along for the ride.

Well, I make my own choices. I think for myself. I am not under direction to any. I beg pardon for those who disagree. I belong to my faith because I feel it within my heart.
I am not persuaded by vague argument, but I still can make the choice to reply, or not.

If I see your reply, I can either reply or ignore. It is a choice. No amount of wiring can make me do things I choose not to do.

If someone were to force me to kill, I would not. Because I choose not to.
If someone were to force my vote on something, I would not, it would be my choice.
If someone were to force anything onto me, I can avoid it by choice. In manner of discussion and thoughts. free will is about choices. Manner of thinking.
I am sorry for your wiring, I wish you would break free from the problem of no free will.

However, thus far I do see you interjecting thoughts varied from mine, so I suppose you are thinking about all of this, and no one is forcing that, are they?

Peace.

Just because Windupnostril don't believe in free will, doesn't mean he doesn't have free will, and vice verse, just because you believe you have it doesn't make it true.

There's nothing to 'break free' from.

I personally find the prospect of free will rather scary (as well as 'probably' untrue). Mainly because free will essentially means that no one can predict your actions. It means that there is no rhyme or reason to our actions and is merely the whim of some strange unpredictable soul or mind.
It means our actions are basically random.

well, i think its impossible to know whether or not there is anything in control of the brain. im pretty sure that physical things react to other physical things, and that the brain is a physical thing, but at the same time our mind is an abstract thing, and it seems to have control over the brain. whether or not physical things can control abstract things and vice versa seems hard to determine--all i can say is that in all probability the mind and the brain work parallel, as if one is in control of the other, but maybe neither is true.

Look, there is no such thing as the 'mind' you speak of. There is only the brain. Your sense of 'I' is because of your brain. There is no soul or some mysterious being, just our brain.

if there wasnt a mind than you wouldnt be experiencing anything. if there wasnt a mind nobody would experience the world. the brain allows for experience to take place, and this experience is not a physical thing. there is more evidence that the mind exists than there is that the brain exists, simply because everyone is able to experience. if the mind doesnt exist, than would you say that computers and people are the same thing? maybe they are and maybe they arent, but the argument goes as to whether computers have a mind, experience the same way we do, and are self-aware as we are. this is the mind. it is true that it does not physically exist, but it does exist abstractly, meaning that you are your mind. you are experience itself. the brain is a hunk of nerve tissue with electricity running through it. experience of the world is much different than this. if you cut the brain open would you see how each person experiences? no. that is because it is not physical, but is the result of a physical process inside of the brain.

Now we are discussing whether the mind exists? Ok.

Well, the brain is built on computing things, right? The conscious thoughts are not computed things. The brain is able to function the body and move it, but how the heck do you move a thought? Can you take a measuring tape to a dream? Could you weigh a freaking idea? I understand that memory is the arangement of conections between neurons in the synapses, but to create a new thought in the mind can is not created by neurons and synapses, because we understand it as a conversation, not 011010001010111010. The brain does not hold a function for what we know as thought or imagination. Like what Windupnostril said about experience. The brain as we know it would calculate that experience. We can put it in our heads and imagine it to many perspectives and such.

Okay you guys want to chew on something existential, here are two that deals, loosely, with what you are talking about....

::clears throat::

Reality is but a dream, and the dreamer is but thy self.

A truth is a truth because we believe a truth to be the truth. But if we did not believe the truth to be the truth, is the truth still the truth?

Call me when you think you figured out the answers.

Covering two in one. Free will exists within existential standards.

Every possiblity exists before it is addressed, and upon time of selection, every individual has 'free will' to choose from the possibilities available. Thus, every option is accounted for (no free will to choose outside of these limitations), but the option to select one specific choice to move forward from does exist (thus free will).
Doesn't this make everyone happy?

There are really two ways to look at this issue.

From a materialist's perspective, no, there is no such thing as real 'free will'. After all, if nothing transcends the physical universe, our thoughts, decisions and ideas are merely physical phenomena within the brain. Now, this would not mean our actions are predetermined, because there exists within the universe an inherent randomness (from quantum physics, I think); but it does mean any appearance of actual control over our thoughts is an illusion, as it is just the nuances of physics that really determines our thoughts.

Then there is the... uh, I don't know the word for it - but if (like me) you believe that there is something beyond the brain that controls how we act, then free will is quite possible. Also, free will does not mean that our actions would be random - it would just mean we had the power to decide what they would be. If you wanted them to be random, sure, they could be, but no-one would ever want to do that, would they?

Now, the really good part is this: We have no way of proving one way or the other. Just because something feels like it's the case doesn't mean it is - it could be an elaborate deception. There is no way to prove, in a physical universe which happens to be all we have experience of, that anything beyond it exists, but likewise there is no way to prove it doesn't.

I'm sure there's something I've left out, but I can't think what it is right now.

Right, it can never be proved, but in any case, nothing in this world can be completely proved.
The brain is evidence. You can feel and see it. A 'lifeforce' however, is next to a myth.
Regarding compters, they will be aware like us and have a sense of 'I' once we give them a consiousness, through some chip or something.
What is being asked is who is the experiancer. Your sense of I lies in your brain, the consiousness.

Ok, I have an interesting question.
Imajine that you can transfer to another person's body. But once you inside are him, will you still be you? Will it make any difference wheather my 'soul', 'me' or whatever goes into your body and yours into mine?Because the brain is the real 'you'.