The Qur'an - Page 2

"Again, Jesus changed those laws.
Unless you are Jewish, and do not believe in the Christ whom was here in the flesh, then of course, it would make sense."
Christ did not come to bring equality between men and women, or abolish slavery or anything like that. The rules pertaining to women's unworthiness exist in the NT.


"Let me explain a tad more. Look at the laws today. Nations built on the basics of christian theology."
You live in a small world. China, India and Japan are still basically Pagan (not even monotheistic!).
Christians are a MINORITY.

" The few who allow more, are minut in comparison. There will always be some exceptions to any rule."
India, North Africa, East Africa and the whole Middle East are minute? That's a good chunk of the world's population.

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The rules pertaining to women's unworthiness exist in the NT.

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If that were true, then He would have let them stone Mary of Magdelene. But He did not.
If that were true, He would NOT have said the husband would leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. Cleave...ya know, stay close to. Adore, be partnered with.
Matthew 19; 3-12

One verse I will give you, because it is meant to make you realise, that Jesus changed MAN'S law. 'Therefore now they are no longer two, but one flesh.' (Gee now this sounds like women are less than man.....NOT! It makes them equal in the eyes of Jesus. He did not make one more than the other, but ONE flesh.) 'Therefore they are NO LONGER two, but one flesh.'

They said to Him 'Why then did Moses command to give written notice of dismissal, to put her away?'
He said to them; 'BECAUSE MOSES, BY REASON OF HARDNESS OF YOUR HEART, PERMITTED YOU TO PUT AWAY YOUR WIVES; BUT IT WAS NOT SO FROM THE BEGINNING.'

See men are hard of heart, not God.
You seem like you are a bit chauvenist, and refuse to see that the mentality towards women had changed. You, named yourself. Not I.

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You live in a small world. China, India and Japan are still basically Pagan (not even monotheistic!).
Christians are a MINORITY.

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Look at China, communism, where I suggest all aethiests live in. After all, they hate christianity, why not go move there and see the difference on how people are treated. They fear not a God, and they show it.
I know more Indians, Chinese, and wonder how many you know....!
Basically, there are christians in those countries, but guess what, they flee their land, tell me, how many people do you see, besides criminals flee from America?
WHY? Because democracy is based on christianity. DO not believe me? read Thomas Jefferson.

IF you quote me, make sure you complete the entire essense.

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And nations upon nations believe in a marriage consisting of one woman, one man. The few who allow more, are minut in comparison. There will always be some exceptions to any rule.

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They do not have mutiple marriages in India, or China. The leaders may have concubines in China, but it more rare now. Like I said, I know people from these countries. Evidently your knowledge of marriage is in need of an update.

http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s202152.htm
http://www.umiacs.umd.edu/users/sawweb/sawnet/divorce/
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=6700

.... (Qur'an 4:3)

From this verse a number of facts are evident:

That polygamy is neither mandatory, nor encouraged, but merely permitted.

That the permission to practice polygamy is not associated with mere satisfaction of passion. It is rather associated with compassion toward widows and orphans, a matter that is confirmed by the atmosphere in which the verse was revealed.
That even in such a situation, the permission is far more restricted than the normal practice which existed among the Arabs and other people at that time when many married as many as ten or more wives.
That dealing justly with one's wives is an obligation. This applies to housing, food, clothing, kind treatment..etc., for which the husband is fully responsible. If one is not sure of being able to deal justly with them, the Quran say: 'then(marry) only one.' (Qur'an 4:3)
This verse, when combined with another verse in the same chapter, shows some discouragement of such plural marriages. The other verse plainly states:

'You are never able to be fair and just as between women even if it is your ardent desire...' (Qur'an 4: 129)

"If that were true, then He would have let them stone Mary of Magdelene. But He did not."
Fine, when I have time, I will find you the passage.

"Look at China, communism, where I suggest all aethiests live in. "
I'm sorry this is a grossly incorrect statement. The government may be atheist, but the bhuddist.

"After all, they hate christianity, why not go move there and see the difference on how people are treated. They fear not a God, and they show it."
They are communist. I'm sorry, not atheists are the same, in case you did not know.
Besides, China is moving towards free market economics and democracy.

"Basically, there are christians in those countries, but guess what, they flee their land, tell me, how many people do you see, besides criminals flee from America?"
How many people flee atheistic France? If people flee democratic India, it is because India has few good jobs, and the US has more good jobs.
You are consistently confusing religious and economic causes.

"WHY? Because democracy is based on christianity. DO not believe me? read Thomas Jefferson. "
You are so closed-minded its not even funny. Christianity had for 1800 supported Kings, Holy Emperors often sanctified and approved by various religious figures (Popes, Archbishops).
If christiniaty supports democracy, it did a crap job of it for 18 centuries.

'Give unto Caeser what is Caeser's'

Democracy was born with Polytheist (or quasi-atheist depending on the person) Greece. It was then fought in both Protestant USA and Atheistic France.

Democracy has throughout history been mostly unrelated to religion, all religions have at various times supported dictatorships.

"You seem like you are a bit chauvenist, and refuse to see that the mentality towards women had changed. You, named yourself. Not I"
You lost me.

"They do not have mutiple marriages in India, or China"
There's a difference between the law and practice (I don't believe they do it in China). Underage arranged marriages may not be legal in India, but its not uncommon for them to happen anyway.
The same can apply to multiple marriages.
And this isn't counting North and East Africa, the middle east and very populated Indonesia.

"If that were true, then He would have let them stone Mary of Magdelene. But He did not.
If that were true, He would NOT have said the husband would leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife."

Matthew,
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
(reminds me of a famous Quran quote)

Luke,
2:23
(As it is written in the law of the LORD, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord; )

(at least I'm holy)

First Corinthians,

11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

11:5
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

11:6
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

11:7
For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

Please notice that all these quotes are of the NEW Testament. Please note, that they for christian women to be veiled in church, to be subordinate to man, inferior to man and less holy then man.

Now you may claim I'm not quoting them correctly, or I am not interpreting them correctly. But frankly, I think this small sample illustrates my point : the Bible taken litterally is no better then the Quran.

This is getting to be a big arguement. I agree that there are parts in the bible that are pro man and and anti woman. But there are also stories that are pro women.

Paul taught that the man is the head of the household. I'm not sure if Paul taught this or the Catholic church added this. But Jesus did show women equal favoritism. As a matter of fact, he washed the feet of his disciples to show that a servant is great in the eyes of God.

This is about the Quran. So far what I have read in the Quran about women is not good. If I do come across something good, I will put it here.

Thanks Okcity. I will start another topic.

But, with regards to what all Dumbteen put above, I disgree.
I wasn't saying France was communist. BUT if they are aetheist, it is a choice.

Ok, Okcity..I am off this debate.

Surah 4:100: "He who forsakes his home in the cause of Allah, finds in the earth many a refuge, wide and spacious: should he die as a refugee from home for Allah and His Messenger, his reward becomes due and sure with Allah: and Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

Here is one for the ladies:

Surah 4:124: "If any do deeds of righteousness, - be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them."

But it doesn't say they will get a dozen virgins. I bet I don't find that verse. You know that before I boarded an airplane to crash it into a big building so that I could live out eternity with a dozen virgins. I think I would look to see if the Qur'an confirms this or not.

i'd liek to know how you got to that islam started 250 years after christianity.

as for the virgins for men, what do women get in heaven?


http://islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=57582
http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=25454

Islam means follower of God. So technically, all of us who follow God are Islam. However, the religion that calls itself Islam began 250 AD (give or take a couple years), with MOHAMED who claimed to be Jesus returned. I can believe that, because I believe that it wasn't too much further before this time that the church was raptured up. It would be proper for Jesus to return as a gentile, and yet still be of the blood line of Abraham. Up to this point everything makes since to me. It is what happens after this that I am confused about. As I don't know who I am speaking with. I will only say that it is against the law to kill another person. That law comes from God. If this same God who gave us this law to not kill, turns right around and tells us to kill. This God would be a hypocrit and not a perfect God. God is a perfect God. God would not tell anybody to kill anyone. People who say that God said this is a lier and not a follower of God. Yet hundreds of millions of people believe this. Christian, Jew and Islam alike. I AM CONFUSED as to how anyone could believe such a thing.

You're links didn't work. Someone else was having trouble with that.

If men could have virgins in heaven, certainly women should also be able to. Still haven't come across those versus.

muhammed (pbuh) was born in the 7th centuary. he never claimed to be jesus. unless you're talking about some other arab named muhammed in the 3rd centuary?

as for everyone being muslim. we believe that all the prophets were muslim, as they followed the true religion of the time. with the advent of new prophets, the old religions ceased to be valid. islam happens to be the last religion, and Muhammed (pbuh) the last prophet.

i'll fix the links .. if you copy and paste the link, they shoulod work

There has been some discussion about Jesus being resurrected after he died.

Surah 4:157/158: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"; - but they did not kill him, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they did not kill him: - Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise; -

Surah 5:28: "If you stretch your hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against you to slay you: for I do fear Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds."

thats saying that Jesus was not killed, and raised to the heavens. most islamic scholors believe that God replaced jesus with some other person, and that he was crucified instead of jesus.

the thing about that is that this line in the Quran essentially turns christianity upside down.

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muhammed (pbuh) was born in the 7th centuary. he never claimed to be jesus. unless you're talking about some other arab named muhammed in the 3rd centuary?

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There where two Muhammeds. The second Muhammed you refer to claimed to be a prophet, a follower of the first. I think it was this second Muhammed who gave us the Koran. Not real sure, the copy I have doesn't have the history. The first one I began to read in a library many years ago did.

I have not come accross any history of between the first or second muhammed. But I would be curious to learn more about that time. Peace Be With You