EVOLUTION - Page 4

okcitykid wrote:

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"Strongclad - Why do I have to believe what you believe? Will it help you believe what you believe? Do you need my belief to believe it?"

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Just so I can understand, why do you think that my faith isn't fully grounded, or my belief fully established? Do you think that I am waivering in my belief? For some reason, I get the impression that you think I might be questioning my own beliefs. I do not need you to believe what I believe so I can feel secure in my faith. How did you come to the conclusion that this might be so? I only want you and everyone else to believe what is true, and not what isn't real.

I know that you believe what you believe, but I'm not actually sure what that is. I've heard you quote from the Bible, talk about aliens amongst other things, but I haven't gotten the impression that your belief is actually established since you have said quite often that we cannot know for sure what is true. The understanding I get from your posts is that you take a kind of undecided stance in all the discussions brought about. I get the feeling that your belief is not really a belief in any one thing, but is simply: "I can't know for sure." Am I right or wrong in my assumption?

I'd just like to say something real quick. Those who call themselves Christians and say "I'm not sure," you're not really Christians. In order to be a Christian, you must KNOW that Jesus died on the cross for our salvation, if you're "not sure" whether he did or not, then you don't believe it wholeheartedly and cannot enter the kingdom of God. One Bible verse and I'm sorry I can't remember which one states "Those who confess with their mouths and believe with their hearts that I am the Son will enter the kingdom of God." Or something like that I can't remember exactly.

"The question I want to ask is: Have you looked into this as well as you think you have?"
Honestly, I haven't. However, I have found that whatever preaches a religion tends to very arbitrary. Every religion says different things and blindly obeys they're scriptures (I should say, obeys some and ignores others for no real reason), which I am not keen on.
And I really haven't found the time and motivation to investigate each major religion (not to mention each subbranch) Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism and Christianity.
Finally, the arguments of converters in my experience has never been based on hard historical (or any kind) of evidence, there have been many threats though (you will burn...) and unfounded perks (go to heaven!) which are not back up with evidence either.
I am open however, and I'd like to know this evidence supporting Jesus's resurection. After all, the Bible was written long after Jesus died, you'd think people would write a bit more (or a LOT more) about a person who walked on water, healed, turned water to wine and rose from the dead.

I was actually done replying to this thread, strongclad, but you gotta be kidding me.

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I only want you and everyone else to believe what is true, and not what isn't real.

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If I did not have any Christian background, and was currently deciding on whether or not to look into it, that statement would totally turn me off.

If you tell me you believe what you believe because your FAITH is STRONG, I can respect that. I might even be inspired to check out the source of such strong faith (of course, it would also depend on how you conduct yourself).

But how could you show such disrespect regarding others' beliefs??

When I'm sure you've been going by your own personal experiences with Christianity, and haven't actually come FACE TO FACE with Jesus, God, or even an "angel"... how could you claim 'proof' and openly call all other beliefs not 'true' and 'not real'? What makes Christianity trump Islam or Jewish beliefs... whose members I'm sure are as zealous in their beliefs as you are, and whose historical founders (Muhammad, etc.) ALSO exist in historical records?

You want to use 'proof' and tangible evidence apart from FAITH to claim that Christianity is the one true religion? Then put your money where your mouth is and TELL me where this evidence is. Show me a non-Christian source, that objectively... and I repeat objectively PROVES Jesus rose from the dead and sat at the right hand of God to save mankind. And that all other faiths/worldviews are universally inadequate.

This is what I'm getting from what you post, and believe me when I say that it is not inspiring at all. Quite the contrary. There is a way to affirm and show strength within your faith without resorting to what seems like bigotry.

"This is what I'm getting from what you post, and believe me when I say that it is not inspiring at all. Quite the contrary. There is a way to affirm and show strength within your faith without resorting to what seems like bigotry."
Well that seems a bit harsh.

DumbTeen wrote:

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"I am open however, and I'd like to know this evidence supporting Jesus's resurection. After all, the Bible was written long after Jesus died, you'd think people would write a bit more (or a LOT more) about a person who walked on water, healed, turned water to wine and rose from the dead."

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One bit of information I'd like to clarify for you is that the New Testament - the portion of the Bible which talks about Jesus - wasn't written very long after the death of Christ at all. The world has in it's posession as we speak, over 20,000 extant copies of the Bible dated from 130 A.D. to now. That puts our earliest copy of scripture only 95 years after the death of Christ. According to most all Historians and Historiographers, this is not enough time for myth to develop in any historical narrative. If you consider the dates and look into the process of determining each writing's birth, you will notice that those who were alive during the time of Christ, were still alive to corroborate these writings. Based on the contents of scripture - names, locations, events of history - the originals can be dated really close to the death of Christ.

If you really want to check out the verifiable evidence for the claims of Christ, look into finding the book The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. It gives some pretty good insight. And if you like, I can send you a copy.

Aura wrote:

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"how could you show such disrespect regarding others' beliefs??"

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I'm sorry if you think I'm being disrespectful of others opinions, by asserting what I believe to be true. But is it really disrespectful to claim the truth if there is evidence for it, and then tell someone else what they believe is untrue? Would you want to allow someone to live there entire lives believing or living a lie, and not tell them the truth - even if that truth is undeniably verifiable - for the sake of tolerance, and the avoidance of "burning bridges?" I'm sorry, but historicaly and biblically, Christianity is the religion of "burning bridges."

If you like, I'll go ahead and get you the information you want, but in no way am I a scholar in Christian Apologetics. I've read a lot about early Christian history and the evidence for the Christian claims, but it'll take me a while to compile this information for you. Although what I claim as evidence is objective proof, the truthfulness of Christianity can only be based on the probability of the facts - just like any written account of history.

And just to state as a fact, history is a partaker in bigotry. It cares not about beliefs or opinions, because events in time have been written in stone and cannot be changed.

Like I mentioned to DumbTeen above. Check out The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. There are plenty of books like this with the evidences you ask for, and if you are willing to read my posts, you might as well go to the history professionals and read what they have to say.

Strongclad - I correct myself - part of your faith is evangelizing. So I guess if you continue to try to make me believe in what you believe you are being true to your faith. Those who bear much fruit ................ and those who don't ............................... - you don't want to be one that don't.

I suppose it would be a waste to tell you you're not going to change my mind.

I will tell you though, that is the part of your faith most of us think sucks.

But let me just reiterate - Just because you think something is true, that don't mean it is.

Dumbteen: Don't be discouraged - religion is wonderful. My suggestion is that you study all of them and pick out the characterisics and believe in them. For instance "Do Unto others as you would do unto yourself" You will find a different varation of this in all the major religions.

Mother Teresa prayed to mother mary using beads - your religion would condem her an idolater. But I believe she will go to a higher place in heaven then you. You who believe you don't live a lie and are saving us with the truth.

Jesus was not born of a Virgin - that was added to the scriptures later but is not found in the older transcripts. Yet, though we know this, why do they leave it in the bible and yet still believe it? Strongclad - I will say it again - you only think you know the truth.

One day I opened my eyes and decided that I wouldn't believe anything I used to believe or anything anyone else believed. Just because someone or most people think. I would leave behind everything I was taught and start over, that was 14 years ago.

okcitykid, I don't know how you do it. You always seem to manage to come across so calmly. People tell me I tend to get blunt.

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I'm sorry if you think I'm being disrespectful of others opinions, by asserting what I believe to be true. But is it really disrespectful to claim the truth if there is evidence for it, and then tell someone else what they believe is untrue? Would you want to allow someone to live there entire lives believing or living a lie, and not tell them the truth - even if that truth is undeniably verifiable - for the sake of tolerance, and the avoidance of "burning bridges?" I'm sorry, but historicaly and biblically, Christianity is the religion of "burning bridges."

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That's great, strongclad. Try again when you understand my post.

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And just to state as a fact, history is a partaker in bigotry. It cares not about beliefs or opinions, because events in time have been written in stone and cannot be changed.

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That's a funny statement you're stating as "fact" there. Do you know what I remember from the history courses I took? (yes, call me a dork, but I've spent time taking a wide range of courses). The professors take a small portion of their time to point out that in the study of history - which is written accounts of past events - we must be always be aware that in what is recorded and how it is recorded, historians may have incorporated their own biases, opinions, and beliefs. Ideally, a historian would simply record events as they happen, but - we live in the real world. People are not perfect and have different perceptions, and some historical sources seem more reliable than others.

I'll go ahead and read that book when I can. If you're around when I finish it, I'll let you know what I thought.

And yes, go ahead and 'compile' that information, why don't you.

It could be entertaining.

(... and as a fair warning... entertainment is why I'm asking. I can't really take seriously a discussion with someone who supports bigotry. Don't see a point in doing so.)

*cough* flamefest *cough*
"Dumbteen: Don't be discouraged - religion is wonderful. My suggestion is that you study all of them and pick out the characterisics and believe in them. For instance "Do Unto others as you would do unto yourself" You will find a different varation of this in all the major religions."
... I don't know. I've never *believed* in something through will. I don't think its possible, for me anyway. And I can't think of a reason to believe in any them..
I do think that religion can help people.. I remember I a while ago my mom got me this "positive thinking" book which included a lot of religious content, like praying a LOT.
Well, I didn't pay it much attention but I think I'll give it a read now.

Well - I don't really think I was too nice. I tried to be nice. In my time I was once a fundamental christian, and I would witness to people hoping to save their soul, when in fact I was hoping to save my own, because the vine that doesn't bear fruit gets cut off. Then one day, I woke up - Man, am I glad I woke up.

Aura - thanks for the complement and Dumbteen - If you do not study, life will teach you, but when that lesson plan comes to you - I don't want you to be stubborn to it because of what you witness here or anywhere else. I've seen the Atheist get on his knees and pray. I don't believe anybody really doesn't believe. I just think some people don't know what to believe - they are the honest ones.

May The Force Be With You.

GreenWeed-

Wow, did you come off as being ignorant. Your hate blinds you. Perhaps, though, it enlightened you. Maybe you can tell me how everything came to be? Just don't use the evolution theory, which was disproved by logic, as it where, on a post of the first page.

By the way, i prefer the weed with other colors

And Aura

We'll stop giving evolution a hard time when believers in the theory stop talking like its fact. Please....
But if you want to get philosophical, try ephilosopher.com

"Wow, did you come off as being ignorant."
As did you.

"We'll stop giving evolution a hard time when believers in the theory stop talking like its fact. Please.... "
The evidence for it is so strong that God would have to go out of his way to mislead us for it to be false.

" Just don't use the evolution theory, which was disproved by logic, as it where, on a post of the first page. "
If your reffering to Strongclad's "facts" they hardly disprove evolution. All they do is show a biased POV against evolution, interpreting every finding the way you want so evolution looks false. Granted, some findings are hoaxes, but many are undoubtedly true, genetic analysis of the bones shows they are real.

However justjgr, you illustrated the unfairness of the evolution debate. Although the scientists must back up their claims with strong evidence, fossil and genetic, the faithful need not have any evidence other then the scriptures.

" Perhaps, though, it enlightened you. Maybe you can tell me how everything came to be?"
Big bang is most likely. Although we're not sure exactly, the only reason scientists aren't sure is because scientists don't believe in things baselessly.
This isn't a problem for some (READ SOME) priests who will claim something as mythological as genesis being true.

Thats Crap.. The bible is Crap.. Lightening hit a Rock! Theres evolution for you!!

*Scratching Head* We came from lightening?

Hmmm... a bit random lol.