EVOLUTION - Page 14

Firstly, I never said the message was lost. Several times even. Regardless, my point was often that the message is mired in taint.

This is along the same lines as all scriptures which deviate on key points, only one in theory is correct. Intellectual and indeed spiritual means are needed to filter and decipher.

The fears I refer to are of the majority of the masses. Lack of fear, in appropriate context, is equally troublesome.

But I refer to fear of truth and truth seeking, asking questions of tradition and "holy" declarations, religious, government, media, scholastic authorities, etc.

Also the extremely dangerous fear of personal responsibility, fear of power inherent in all and generally given away to unworthy hands.

Those who blindly follow dogmas and other indoctrinations, traditions, governments etc. without fear or vigilance of malfeasance are also a terrible blight.

These are the fears to which I refer. An ultimate pontentially being the fear of the power of god in man's hands, which may be within us all.

My experiences are varied and come in different times of perspective and affect through different contexts.

Among the earliest of relevance that I can recall is the blissful euphoria in a rare for me church service. Upon the point when everyone got up and sang together with like positive intention I was awestruck by the sheer magnitude of force created and the notion of unconditional loving acceptance.

Now mind you I was skeptical and leary of church even at that time. I had watched as minds were threatened closed by "god fearing" preachers and parents. Family disowned for lack of belief or life choices etc.

I had had an interesting occurance in a youth group where I was asked to ask Jesus into my heart, but it had occurred to me their warnings of the devil's trickery.

So I asked if we could get rid of "Jesus" from our hearts after asking in case it was a trick of the devil, this did not go over well but was not discussed nor garnered any form of reprimand. The look in the pastor's eyes sticks with me still.

Suffice to say I wasn't your average carefree kid to begin with. Worthy of note was my intellect and empathic nature.

Given tools to see what people were saying, to feel what they truly felt, and the intelligence to put together the lies and fears people masked their truths with, especially in religious circles, I remained a quiet and watchful boy, quiet primarily due to early exposure to severe violence, sexual abuse, and most of the banes of society and not only their obvious direct reprecussions, but the far worse ones of those who avoid reality and enable it to occur in order to save face or hide their own skeletons.

But since I'm giving backround, don't be mistaken. Though a lot of negativity was present and remains an issue of clearing for me, beauty and love were also at times present but always felt in some facit. Having natural artistic and musical and writing abilities I held an awe and respect for the mysteries and the evident alike.

What I gained from the aforementioned church encounter of bliss was at first a fear of posession and loss of self. A form of brainwashing that I mistakenly accounted as the opiate of the masses as later taught. The trick was learning the deeper truth which did not come till much later. To sum it up, the learning of twisting and using a truth for a false and malevolent purpose, such as real spiritual experience either applauded if defined under accepted parameters or decried and threatened as posession or of the devil, pagan, magic if not towing the line.

I watched as so many were taught to hate and fear others and other ways of thinking all in the name of love and god. Obviously something was wrong.

To fast forward, the true paradigm shifter for me given such a spiritually strained and nearly devoid, minus my intellectual and unbeknownst spiritual leanings cloaked in super heroes and star wars.

But being averse to religion and generally scientifically minded, spirituality was certainly repressed. Though curiosity abounded.

The question of god was not as important for I took enough comfort in an agnostic approach, it seemed only reasonable not to make claims that would be lies to myself, no god I would respect or follow would demand such nonsense. Plus, I felt very comfortable in an established notion that being good people was just the right thing to do. Not that I excelled in that on a certain level, but that has more to do with being beyond my years in sensing and intellectualizing the faults of our corrupt system.

So what became important was the life after death issue. The meaning and point of life. But this too was in passing mostly. Untill I truly started to learn about the true depth and severity of the corruption conspiracy.

When I faced amongst my greatest fears of a true society of ruling class bent on death, theft, and rape to the point of desiring up to 90% population reduction, I was resolute in finding answers, what held much other purpose after such a revelation.

This led to ancient history and a merging with modern philosphy and science. Ancient mystery religions and secret societies suppressing unimaginable knowledge of the truth of humanity and human potential.

As you have alluded to, but I don't know to what degree, this led to the lucid dreaming and the out of body experience that gave me the "factual" evidence I truly needed to believe beyond doubt of a spirit existing outside of the body vessel.

The rest in terms of seeking guidance and being given sadly but blessedly cryptic synchronistic answers, teasing me along my path of discovery are equally as difficult to articulate or say with any conviction towards others perspectives as your own.

But I will say that a mentality of unconditional love and fear overcoming empowerment are the primary lessons bequeathed to me.

Basically a different interpretation of what it means to know and be with god than most christians advocate. It seems the final hurdle for those who lie in wait through limitation enforced by man's manipulation upon their scriptures.

But no, it does not give me all answers, and frankly I don't think I want it to. Lest what is the point of the journey?

I know I am leaving out mounds of information but hope this serves as some degree of elaboration on my end.

On the final note of yours, I have often heard and far more resonated with Jesus sayings of the light withing, the house of god within and things of these natures. And given the research of his potential travels through india and the land of the hindu and buddhist this makes far more sense.

It fills the gaping holes left in scripture, mostly intended, and the contradictory fear and loathe based general christian interpretation of his teachings.

But I am not as researched in scripture as you, I have focused more on the behind the scenes issues that shape the truths we are given by man.

And again, truth is always preserved, but it takes a wise and spiritually open mind to find it indeed.

You say you do not fear, but you fear for others yes?

Your testimony takes my breath away to be honest Ironwood.
The out of body experience in particular. Thanks for sharing. Now that I sense sincerity in your inquisitions of my experience I'm able to expand on my testimony a without being guarded. Ironic how we share a lot of common thoughts, ideas, concerns and conclusions yet we can disagree so on how some of these revelations are transcended.

For the record I consider "mystical" experiences separate from spiritual ones. Spiritual to me is more about reality beyond that which we experience in the physical existence. It is the evidence that there is more to life then physical survival. Mystical experiences are more in line with watching a magician on stage or a drug induced visual experience. Right or wrong, that's my delineation of the two.


About 18 years ago I had an experience similar to yours in that I imediatly realized that there was something beyond the physical reality that we take for granted. I was a long haul truck driver at the time and had deep concerns for a woman who was in my life at this time. Keep in mind my thoughts on God and evolution were really nonexistent in that I accepted both not caring about them. More concerned with everyday life, how to change the world and how to get rid of lying politicians...things along those lines. Well I found myself driving down the highway somewhere in the Midwest deep in thought over this woman. I suddenly had an overwhelming urge to pray for her. Then after about 20 minutes of sincere praying to a God I had formally been indifferent to most of my life; I fell into what seemed to be a deep trance and came out of it some 30-40 miles down the road. I had no recollection of making all the little adjustments in driving that one has to constantly make in order to stay on the road. Neither did I recall turning at some point but I realized I did, not only did I turn but where I needed to at that. To me, that slightly more then a half hour was perfect bliss without the usual instincts of survival. More of an assurance with an accompanying euphoria that the woman and all things are in good hands. That's basically what I took from that experience. And I do not nor did I at that time use drugs.

Fast forward a little to the experience we've been talking about.
My wife of whom I was temporarily separated from at the time of the previous experience, had convinced me we should start attending church services at her childhood church. So wen went but inside I basically critiqued the preacher and reconciled within myself how I had "my way" of believing in God, that included discarding any supposed importance placed on scripture.

Well building up to that special day of enlightenment to me, my wife had begun suffering a back condition that involved deteriorating spinal discs in her lower back. Three to be exact. Well the pain had become so severe that the meds and therapy no longer gave her enough relief. She eventually became bed ridden most days only rising and dressing herself if she absolutely had to. And then only if she had a rare day of some level of relief from the constant excruciating pain. She began to express a desire that God would " just take her" and that desire led to suicidal thoughts that she expressed as well.

In the mean time back at the church we had attended at her request in the time prior to this point, I had became some what involved just to avoid " are you really saved?" looks from people.
On a spring Saturday I found myself on our couch getting ready for a prayer walk through the neighborhood of our church. I picked up my Bible and began reading in Matthew chapter 9 the story where the woman with an issue concerning her menstrual cycle just thought to herself " If I could just touch the hem of clothes Jesus wore, then I will be healed." I then shared that sentiment as it pertained to the possibility of Christ being real in relationship to my wifes back pain.

This overwhelmingly sense of euphoria much greater than I had previously experienced on the highway suddenly descended upon me that I can only describes as the Spirit of God. It is in that instant the he "told" me to first pray for my salvation then lay hands on my wife and pray regarding her condition. I obeyed those commands ( for lack of a better word) and as if it were rehearsed, my wife had gotten herself out of bed and came to me on the couch, full of tears and pain. I asked if I could pray for her and hinted God had told me to lay hands on her. It was that instant that God confirmed scripture and healed my wifes pain. She afterwards washed the car once the realization that the pain for the first time in years was really gone set in. I, as I've said before, imediatly began feeding this unimaginable hunger and desire to know all of scripture and its contextual meaning in life and my experiences that had suddenly descended on me at that time. That is why my experience is tied so closely to the scriptures. It was them that led me to my "awakening" as you put it.

Yes, I do remain fearful for those who remain ignorant to the reality that is beyond theirs. I would like to discuss this more but I do have to run for now.

Well I greatly appreciate both you sincere interest and openness to my abbreviated history and the sharing of your own.

I finally see better where the scriptural link comes in even though I long ago shed any doubt of your experience.

The similarities are indeed interesting. I wonder if you take any added note that my own most profound experience was not scripturally linked, in fact it is often decried by those of a scriptural mind.

This is why I do not focus on scripture and perhaps have a slightly different ultimate interpretation of what salvation is or what is required. But I'm not even sure that is the case.

But again, I still express that there is plenty of truth in scripture. Just as I feel it ultimately limits human potential.

What I mean by that is the vast resources and powers endowed upon us by our creator. Like healing/placebo effect, but also the often considered blaspemous and devil oriented inter dimensional spiritual travel and even interaction with other beings of these realms. But not excluding all manner of psychic phenomena, telepathy, telekinisis etc. Again very commonly maligned by the religious sector unless approved by the vatican or some such nonesense.

This comes back to what it may mean between our so far expressed different theories on what god is and what its intentions would be.

Obviously we are very similar tracks as you have noted, the difference is even irrelevant from my perspective because the primary existing "disagreement" is on speculated conclusions regardless of our experiences.

Feel free to take issue with that assessment of course, but let me add that at this point I'm not excluding or jumping to any conclusions of what god is or its ultimate purpose or intention, even for us. I have limited ideas and notions but that's about it.

And to say again, they do not in any way appear to be dependent upon scripture though scripture is a great source an introduction and general guide.

What I would like clarified is simply if you feel scripture necessary for your experience or just helpful.

And if you can elaborate on any conclusions or postulations of god, purpose, intention etc. Please do.

I am quite glad we persevered to come to these amicable relations and revelations.

Quote: "The similarities are indeed interesting. I wonder if you take any added note that my own most profound experience was not scripturally linked, in fact it is often decried by those of a scriptural mind."

In answer to your question Ironwood, yes I did take note of it. Indeed, that was, yes past tense, was what had confused me at first. But I realized while reading of your experience that you were speaking truths that are in scripture. You see, scripture explains many of the things you revealed. In fact, it teaches us the importance of deciphering the spirits to determine those of truth and those of falsehood. When I'm back at my computer I will elaborate if you wish.

But that leads me to something else. You suggested that scripture can be a guide of sorts. And you asked me if I recall, what is there level of importance to me now? Well that's is a pretty close assessment on your part. I would just add that I do not consider them magical nor to have any power/meaning to any beholder who isn't receptive.

That said the evil that men do and the way they can twist scripture to mean just about what
ever they decide it could mean can not be laid at Gods feet. It is the evil that fills our hearts desire. If you think about it you know what I mean. You and I must restrain our thoughts on a daily bases in certain aspects because they are shameful in nature. Some merly show less restraint. I have more to say if you're willing to listen but time constraints are a problem at this time.

Suffice it to say right now, I believe scripture is being revealed to you in a supernatural way and that is a possibility, indeed a truth of scripture revealed in scripture itself. You just haven't realized what's happening yet.

Ironwood,

Just wanted to clarify that I'm not applying scripture to your experiences. I see your experiences as vindictive of what scripture declares.

I share the same concerns for dogmatic ritualistic applications of the scriptures as you. I believe with all the fiber of my being that my life altering experience, as with yours and anyone else's, is enlightenment as to the fact that the "written word" was to tell each of us what to look for in matters of truth, purpose and spiritual reality. And definitely not a decree for how we must organize and conduct ourselves according to law. In deed, Jesus taught the exact opposite. More in the lines of being desirous of truth in the absolute purest form will cause your inner being (spiritual being) to reflect such desires outwardly in our behaviors, motives and attitudes.

To me, God is the ultimate expression of love. He has expressed that through creation and has offered it to all freely. In such a unique fashion as to not force himself on any, opting to let us keep our individual personalities that make us who we are yet be in unison with him and all he desires to bestow upon us.

When God expresses "negative" emotion and outrage it is because he lives the frustration caused by so many who would freely reject his offer of true eternal life, knowing all to well the heartache and torment they bring upon themselves in the end. And as if that weren't enough, that frustration is magnified greatly when those who reject him actively attempt to persuade others to reject him as well. Some criticize his methods but I see the wisdom and logic behind them. We can not know good unless we know evil.

Ps. I want to share a couple of verses with you. You may have read them in the past but read them again with this perspective in mind. That scripture, whether it's impressed upon us divinely, written by divine inspiration, or audibly spoken, stands as truth. And you will see the reason for my excitement with your enlightened experience, why I believe God is calling you home.

Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them."

See? Those who would decry against an experience such as yours are NOT scriptural minded, they are manipulators! The Bible teaches self evaluation as a way to understand God again and again. We are just as you believe to search ourselves in our search for truth.

Fyi, I'm coming back to this soon.
And I'm extremely interested in all you have to share, openly and honestly.

So, to move the thread back on track, I would say this divergence was an accounting of our own evolutions

The only main other question off hand, to manbible, is what you mean by god calling to me and what you think it is exactly that you were saying that I haven't recognized as what is happening with my "awakenings".

That would depend on what you mean by "evolutions."

What I meant was I believe due to the fact that you're open to the metaphysical elements of life; you're sensitive to "hearing" God calling you.

And for the second half of your question... I do not believe we arbitrarily seek knowledge just for knowledge's sake. There is a purpose for life. You weren't enlightened to the very real possibility of "life after death" just so your curiosity would be satisfied. Whether or not we are comfortable with the idea of eternal absolute truths or not, we will be held accountable for our personal justifications when it comes to what we accept as truths and what we find out to be true in the end. And we are held accountable because it affects how we choose to live our lives and/or influence others. This accountability will be based on our willingness to readily accept and perpetuate false knowledge or our willingness seek truth. No matter what it implies. I believe God knows us better then we know ourselves and he cares beyond that what we can imagine about each and every one of us. It is his word that we are so inclined to reject at first so it is his word he wants us to believe in for our redemption. He's calling you home.

You've already admitted to the fact that you believe the Bible holds many truths within its pages but I believe you look at scripture completely wrong. It isn't preserved so we can compare notes to test its presumed infallibility. Nor do the scriptures serve as a law that we all must abide by, or else. God is much too compassionate for that even though we choose our imperfect nature. Yes, think about it. We all do choose to prefer things to be not according to the standards of absolute righteousness at times. Despite the desires we generally have of being "good." No, God knows we couldn't keep his laws no matter how hard we tried. Instead he's desirous of us to willfully trust him at his word that he will enable us not only to keep his laws; but be contented in who he is and our relationship with him in the end as well. The scriptures are a tool to help us decipher absolute truths regardless of what those truths mean for the material world and those who prefer it.

Ironwood, the only reason you reject the "negatives" of the Bible is because you do not understand the context for which the verses were inspired. That inspiration was to inspire the beholder to seek and find the truth. That being God created us as an expression of his love. Desiring that we come to the conclusion that our purpose was to seek paradise in the eternal company of God. Only those who truly desire that will forsake ALL the meaningless temporal concerns of this life. Does that mean ignore another in physical need? No! Of course not! It means we can't let the needs of this world dictate our thoughts, opinions and actions when it comes to our purpose for being. Otherwise the truth gets mired with human concerns rather than Gods reasons. Really, to say "God has a plan" is woefully insufficient. God is carrying out his desire to build a society that expresses his loving nature; comprised completely of those who willfully desire to live in complete transparent righteousness.

Do I know all there is about God? NO WAY!! But he has revealed enough for me to know he exist and he is calling you home. Are you "hearing" him?

I'm hearing something, I lean towards the probability that in an ultimate sense it is indeed god.

I am quite comfortable with your description of scripture here. The only negatives I feel I truly "reject" are those I accept as also lessons of a sort. Simply the limitations and misdirections of man, intended or not. This is a more refined version or way of expressing my understanding that has somewhat evolved in part due to this conversation.

I am very interested and even eager to see where things lead next in my "evolution".

And I am very glad I happen to love the journey.

Have you heard of Jonathan Goldman's Holy Harmony song? I feel an urge to share it with you. I'm probably gonna make a post of something for it.

I heard of him and listened to brief samples of his music. I think it's supposed to have some healing effect by the soothing tranquil feeling that it produces. But I really don't know. !'d be interested in what you know about it.

Just a final thought before bed. Ironic isn't it, how people tend to be condescending about these matters if they hadn't experienced them for themselves. I mean typically isn't the one who has greater enlightenment usually the one who would be tempted to be condescending towards those who have lessor understanding?

Man bible- may I ask of which scripture do you follow?
As if you swear by religion in theory you should be following the first scriptures of all should you not?
As any scripture wriiten after the first would sugest that god has made a mistake and is there for not all knowing and not obselete.
To my knowlege the first religion known to man was created by a civilisation called San people who beleived there planet was a disk surrounded by water including the sky and they worshiped the "sun god" or sun of god Called Enoch.

I'm by no means sugesting there is not a god all I'm saying is all scripture has been manifested to control and create a understanding.

Theory,

I follow the true scriptures. The first ones do not equate to the correct ones. And that would logically be the reason God would want to inspire the true scriptures; not because he got it wrong but because we did. And the Christian bible is linked back to those ancient days. Do a quick search of the Edomite language, Edom, and the land of Uz. Then connect the dots.

And how exactly do you choose your correct scriptures? Do you follow old testement? Thus sugesting the new was made by man. Or have you converted to the Quran as they have claimed they are the last ammendment from god and the true book to follow?

There have been so many books of teachings to possibly choose the correct ones as they all claim they are the truth.

Why would a god feel the need to claim fame or seek worship? Or why would a god feel the need to give guidence? Wouldn't not taking part in his creation be much more satisfying?after all isn't all reality just an experiment of an advanced kind... Perhaps evolution is the root to becoming this advanced kind and inturn eventualy create a god or universe for our own experiment or probiblity calculator. Abit far fetched I know but I don't understand how any body could follow scripture as you have clearly noted the origins are evidently created by a primitive civilisation in order to creat an understanding, all religions have aspects relating back to previous religions.

So yes I beleive you should follow the first and not select which suits you. I breifly bit of researched on Edomites and found it rather interesting. (how come all my research I've been doing recently I stumble upon the illuminati?) but when Reading I discuvered further knowlege to the corruption of power and bloodlines. This only backs my point as all scripture after the first would proove god is not obselete and all knowing which is what "Satan" would be trying to proove is it not?
Personaly I don't beleive in Satan I beleive in the living and all universe being god.

All scriptures, and even non scripture writings are likely to have truth in them, as well as non truth, or manipulation or influence through man's limitations of logic and reason.

Does god claim fame or seek worship, or does god merely wish us to become aware of who and what we are and what god is so we may stop our suffering of not knowing and feeling alone and without purpose?

But doesn't any god refrain from direct guidance for the most part? Perhaps only truly unveiling guidance when we open up to it as it has always been there, usually in the form of love and inspiration.

All have had access to divine inspiration, you could write a scripture today, the limitations are of mans making, not divinity. And who says we don't progress to make our own gods and universes, I believe just such tests and learning are likely part of our conscious evolution development and rediscovery.

Because the truth is illumination and it has been suppressed but always present, but now you are awakening.

It is up to you to divine truth by openning to divine inspiration, labels of god and satan or scripture matter not, only truth does.

It is ultimately a test of trusting yourself, your instincts, because you always feel the truth, but it lies buried beneath limitations and manipulations and fears.