The True Religion? - Page 4

quote:

---

Their whole life will be self destructive to themselves and others until they will most likely be put to death. It says that God takes these people and gives them a true spirit and puts them back on earth

---

That's not in the bible. It's in Gnostic scripture. I think it's in the Secret Book of Enoch. i would really have to search, because the Gnostic scriptured aren't cataloged like the bible where you can just look up a word.

Who is Enoch? - look it up. Enoch always amazed me. In the bible there is only one verse about Enoch, it's in Genesis. He never died, he was so righteous that God took him. Amazing. Some believe that Jesus is a reincarnation of Enoch.

In the bible, doesn't it say that Isiah will return. The scribes seem to think it is John the Baptist. John the Baptist knows nothing about that, but you don't remember your past life, so it's not suprising that John would deny it, never-the-less, it would fullfil scripture.

ctrutle, there is a vast difference in reincarnation and resurrection. Glad you understand it. It is not so simple for many because the lines are blurred in how the language of yesterday compares to today.

Which brings me to Okcitykid.

Genesis 5; 21-24
When Henoch was sixty-five years old, he became the father of Mathasale. Henoch walked with God three hundred years after hte birth of Mathusale, and had other sons and daughters. The whole lifetime of Henoch was three hundred and sixty five years. Henoch walked with God; and he was seen no more because God took him.

I highlighted that his lifetime was 365. The term 'God took him' meant he had passed on. We know that God has privelege to take us. That means let us die.
Incidently, it does not claim he came back to life as someone else. By way of noticing if you were to read the chapter of Genesis you would realise that most lived to be 900 years old on average. So Henoch was actually a young man.

However, God shortened their lives in chapter 6.
Genesis 6; 2
the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were fair, and they took wives for themselves, as many as they wished. Then the Lord said, "My Spirit shall NOT remain in man forever, since he is flesh. His lifetime shall be one hundred and twenty years."

NOW before you wonder what the language there means, the sons of God vs the daughters of men. Remember that God created man from His image and woman from man. It is just the terms used. Means nothing that God literally has sons.

Isaias was a prophet who saw God, and spoke of the future of Christ. He spoke in riddles, and parables. His return would not be HIS, but he spoke through out what the Lord had said.

Remember also, the Jews did not accept Jesus as Christ their savior because Isaias spoke that he would come on a chariot of fire.
He spoke in riddle. Easily misinterpretted by the times.

My bible says Enoch (different translation I gues). But dissagree. Everyone else dies, it says so, but with Enoch it says:

quote:

---

.........and he is not, for God took him.

---

For everyone else, the scriptures say "died". Different language and I believe it was intentional.

But I'm not going to argue scripture, because I'm not even sure it is 100 percent.

Let me show you
Hebrews 11; 5-6

By faith Henoch was taken up lest he should see death; and he was not found, because God took him up. For before he was taken up he had testimony that he pleased God, and without faith it is impossible to please God. For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder to those who seek Him.

Hebrews 11; 9
By faith he abode in the in the land of Promise as in a foriegn land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the co heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city with fixed foundations, of which city the architect and builder was God.

Ok, basically if you go to that chapter you will see that Henoch, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, jacob, Sara, Noah, Rehab, and Joseph, were all given up to God in body and spirit as to not see corruption on earth. (Decay) and read....
Hebrew 11;16
But as it is they seek after a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared for them a heavenly country.

In other words, they were not left in sleep like the others who had to await the judgement and crucifixion of Jesus. But they had a city made by God in the heavens. However, they did not dewll with God in heaven as the gates were opened after Christ.

I suppose this one verse could become confusing as to say reincarnation exists, but I will give to interpretation after I quote it.

Hebrews 11; 14-15
For they who say these things show plainly that they seek a country of their own. And indeed if they were thinking of the country from which they went out, they certainly would have had the oppurtunity to return.

But they canot return, so it is not the country from where they came from, but the country God made for them.


As for resurrection. That is when the body reunites with the spirit called our soul. That will occur at the end times, with exception to Jesus, and I beg pardon if anyone disagrees, but the Mother of God.
Look at those God gave a country to from the old testament who by true faith and actions were given to God without corruption to their bodies, thus the Mother of Jesus would be no different. And though she passed after the bible was written, does not mean it did not occur.
For John said that we are to believe all things not written as well.
St John the Apostle 3rd epistle
1;13
I had much to write to thee; but I do not want to write to thee in pen and ink. But hope to see thee shortly, and we will speak face to face. Peace be to thee. The friends greet thee. Greet the freinds by name.
same in the 2nd epistle.

RE~INCARNATION; to be incarnate is to be born, to do it again, is the same sprit in another body.
Rebirth of the soul in another body.
A reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment:

But this is not ever spoken inthe Bible. Any who were taken up, were taken to God. Not returning in spirit to another body.

Peace.

I didn't think Enoch was reincarnated - I found it fasinating and decided to share it and am surprised you can explain it.

quote:

---

Ok, basically if you go to that chapter you will see that Henoch, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, jacob, Sara, Noah, Rehab, and Joseph, were all given up to God in body and spirit as to not see corruption on earth. (Decay) and read....
Hebrew 11;16
But as it is they seek after a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared for them a heavenly country.

---

Facinating - so what church teaches this?

quote:

---

ctrutle, there is a vast difference in reincarnation and resurrection. Glad you understand it. It is not so simple for many because the lines are blurred in how the language of yesterday compares to today.

---

Just to be sure & that no distinction of terms give false testimony. You are saying that Heaven exists then as now because they are with the Father? This being an application of logic drawn upon these statements to OkCity.
I agree with you GOD does as His Will, if HE will to bring Jesus into a physical resurrected life HE did, but I think the acts of transfiguration give evidence of a greater design involved in the manifestation of Christ?

This is an important issue to some. So important that Roman guards had to be posted. Clay Turtle - I don't know if I understand the importance. If you could put a spin on, I'd appreciate it.

Ok as stated (in different context) there are 3 states of being: physical, spiritual & soul.(Like we say there are three states of matter; solid, liquid & gaseous)
Soul tends to relate to GOD (being present before) while the next two spirit & physical are given as the 2nd being lowered for a time?
So even though they speak of thirds, the implication may well be that existence order isn't just a status quo or pecking order. the perception of levels also is used to indicate level of (type) of existence.
Lacking any other way to best state it; Are these representative of the universal set=> GOD, Creation a proper set within a proper set?

I would put it in order of spirit, soul and flesh. I see what you mean.

I think there are four ties of existence, and they are emotional, physical, mental, and spiritual.

Heart, body, mind, soul.

Also, they tie with okcitykid's order as in saying;
spirit, mind, flesh. But after the flesh comes the heart.
In the scriptures, I have read that we were but intelligences and spirits before we came to this world. And why even come to this world? The main reason is because we wanted to progress in our existence, and God had this plan for us so we could EARN perfection. In this world, we gained a body. When you see what happened with Adam and Eve, how they knew they were naked after eating the fruit, then we were able to have a heart.
Through the heart, we are going to be judged by what we have done, and what we tried to do. There, all the philosophical things like temptations, faith, and good vs. right take place.

Interestingly, I was thinking how curious that statement of Dreamers.

quote:

---

RE~INCARNATION; to be incarnate is to be born, to do it again, is the same sprit in another body. Rebirth of the soul in another body. A reappearance or revitalization in another form; a new embodiment: But this is not ever spoken in the Bible

---

I seem to remember something about receiving a prefect body?
A body that would not corrupt?
By definition then the Christian belief is in a reincarnation,
verified by Christ's resurrection?
No pun intended, I found your distinction a good one between resurection and reincarnation. Application of it is loaded with problems, if Jesus returned in a different body, then lack of recognition would be expected? His resurrection elimenates the objection but then it also magnifies questions as to the Nature of His Existence.

quote:

---

The Good Shepherd, who laid down His Life for His Sheep? Who was the man & what did he teach about living life? A Live lead in such absolute righteousness as to contain humanly prefect moral life, an absolute morality? Is this then the reason, the end purpose for His Existence as a physical entity, man?

---

Oh, as a matter of principle, if some were to think of this as incarnation then one could understand how they could form the perception of evolution? I wonder what it means to transfigure?

In resurection, we do not gain a different body. Our bodies are made perfect. We keep the same bodies, but the are altered so there is no disease, no hunger, and whatever.
Jesus did not gain another body. His was made perfect.

if all those pictures of him are real, and that is suppose to be what perfection looks like, then i sure as hell dont ever want to be perfect.

quote:

---

In resurection, we do not gain a different body. Our bodies are made perfect. We keep the same bodies, but the are altered

---

I was discussing this with some (2) brothers (Christians), he put forth the same (similar) answer.
Not in his words, but if I were a, let us see, a '57 T-bird. Being close to half century old, which even with great owner maintaince, I would probably need a good overhaul.
Reincarnation would be like becoming an '07 T-bird while resurrection would be like a new 57 . . . except that it would never need maintaince, no need to add water, oil, or fuel with handling and abilities beyond the most advance vehicles of today.
Which is to bad, I thinking maybe of coming back as Elvis!
But then maybe I could transfigure into the form of whom ever I wanted?

Wyote, what do you mean?