Occupy Wall Street - Page 2

This question made me feel strange.

It feels good to think on this.

Why do people work? What are their motivations for it? That alone probably shapes a man's view of the world in such a way that it is likely that it has the power to define him.

A man who goes to work because he is single and has nothing to do with his time but to make money, would feel much different than an ex-con happy to have any full time job he can get, because it allows him to love his family.

Doctors. To help people or make money? Politicians.

Is a strong desire of self gain present in all who actually attain it? If so, wouldn't they need power to accomplish anything? Being the ype to accomplish alone means being the type to desire power. Power to influence for good or bad.

Absolutely the top lived in luxury. They had the most power.

Can we expect anyone in power to look at their lives and choose modesty over luxury? When they're desire for power is what put them in power?

If Occupy Wal-Street is a banner for socialism, no thank you. The corrupt will find their way in. If it is a statement for revolution for a place that will be better for every to live in, where men are more free and less opressed, hell yeah.

Chris D there can be many other reasons but you need to have the right mindset.

now technological advancement can be one.
building the future to be better is another.
just being better people can also be another.

but they are not very sustainable, people loose interest.

www.rune.galactic.to/iarga.html

read this, even if you do not believe in aliens, this is a great "perfect world" with imperfect beings!!!

anyway, can all you capitalist defenders show me a successful capitalist country?

Are you seriously asking what country has ever benefited from the right to own produce and sell property?

That's all capitalism means. It's the right to own produce and sell property.

If you think something like those rights is bad for the individual or a country you are out of your freakin' mind.

To be fair and answer your question.

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Yeah the greatest country ever created. Our freedom to own produce and sell property is directly responsible for the inventions of the Car, T.V. , Computers, Most of modern medicine including heart surgery, America harnessed the power of electricity the catalyst for the modern world.

Let me ask you something how can you not see that ALL these inventions <a direct result of capitalism> make the world a better place than you have some deep seeded issues.

Capitalism brought forth the modern age.

I love how you continue to ignore this.

Answer me this if you dare.

What country did Automobiles, electricity, computers, modern medicine and aircrafts come from? Google them if you have to.

What is the difference between America and everywhere else at that time? We were the only country where the individual had the right to own sell and produce whatever they wanted.

i should really have excluded the USA because why does this damn thread exist?

it is because of that failing capitalistic country of the United States Of America!!!!!!!

think of another please!!!!!!!! and if you don't want to let's debate the success of the USA

and so by the way heart surgery was perfected here in South Africa!!!!!!!!!

Remember Christiaan Barnard he did the very first heart transplant!!!!!!!!!!

and so by the way most of those inventions where done by scientist and inventors of the european descend, not America, and anyway all Americans are Europeans!!!! but America is claiming them as there own!!

Capitalism can work but it would require a greater self-awareness throughout the general population than there currently is.

If the focus of everyone is purely on themselves then the greater picture will suffer as is happening currently. Have you ever seen a really good artist paint? Always they start with the most general and basic components of the picture before they move onto the details.

Have you ever seen the clumsiness that is produced by a novice painter that starts with a small detail and expands outward? Often as the painting progresses the basic structures will be grotesquely out of the proportion with one another. And that's from ONE person working on ONE vision. Can you imagine what the painting would look like if there were a 100 different people using this method on the same picture? I imagine it would settle into a brown, blackish smear, much like shit.

Now obviously our situation isn't that extreme. There are some rules that are imposed in our capitalism to prevent it all from turning to complete shit.

The fact is humans can't live by the same rules as the animal kingdom. We are the undisputed top of the food chain. If we wanted to we could eradicate every species from the planet right now. But we don't because we need them. They keep us alive. We are dependent on them. We can't even call it a symbiotic relationship because they don't benefit from our existence, only we from theirs.

(I've heard the argument that if there was a comet or asteroid headed for Earth that we would have to destroy it and save the planet and so the planet is also dependent on us... well that would be true except that the amount of people scanning for asteroids right now is just a little larger than the staff at a McDonalds. Not to mention we don't even have a working plan to stop a disaster like that. No, shooting it with a nuke probably won't be a good idea. It would shatter the rock into a billion pieces charged with radioactive material... also not so good. So until we can actually say we're legitimately protecting the planet in any realistic way, I feel correct in saying that our relationship with Earth is not symbiotic.)

So because of this dependent situation we're in we must look at the big picture and create a general framework that is harmonious with our happiness as well as the health of our environment.

Does this mean we have to tip toe and say sorry for every blade of grass we step on...? No. I think all that is required is treating the environment with the same respect we would like to be treated. When companies dump tons of toxic waste into the oceans, I wonder would they dump a bucket full of the same stuff on their neighbors lawn? My guess is not.

To wrap this up, capitalism can work and be sustained but with the low awareness of the general population there would need to be a significant police force to make up for that lack of awareness. There would also have to be regulations on the quality of what is produced. High quality products make more sense on a long term scale than the short term. The short shortsightedness of capitalism is it's greatest flaw.

Socialism on the other hand would limit economic freedom but if it was led by a sincere devotion (not by selfish devotion as has always been the case with it so far) to all of mankind as well as the health of the planet, I think it would be the most efficient and elegant system as well as the more practical option for our current state of awareness.

NEWS FLASH !!!!!!!!!!!!!
All Americans <besides natives> came from europe and the rest of the world. All those Europeans CAME TO AMERICA FOR A REASON.

That reason is capitalism. Financial freedom and religious freedom. Keep in mind the Catholic church was persecuting ALL other religions at the time even other Christians.

If you paid attention to my first post I said What makes America so different?
Not the Country itself because we are made of all races.

So it's not an individual race. It's the freedom this melting pot of races has to succeed.

Try to read in the future. This is getting to be a waste of time I shouldn't have to keep repeating myself.

Are you so dumb you think American "white" is a specific race? American white typically means they are mixed between 3 or 4 european white races and usually somewhere down the line a Native American or two.

As it stands now it seems you've ran out of defenses for your claims and you are just closing your eyes and shouting No You!

Capitalism for the last isn't the problem.

Stop letting the criminals in my country off the hook for abusing our system. You are basically saying it's not there fault it's my country's fault for having a system that allows for manipulation in the rules. If the rules are redefined the problem goes away.

This is where I disagree with conservatives. More regulation to the market is needed. However as the conservatives warn if you allow the wrong people to write these rules they can write them in such a way that they are picking the winners and losers. Very similar to whats happening now.

They are abusing their freedom. They should be held accountable for their own actions. Stop blaming everyone else but the criminals.

i am putting the blame on the system, which in the first place caused the criminals. if the idiots that created that stupid country of yours didn't use capitalism criminals would almost not exist and wouldn't have been able to infiltrate the countries laws to make it better for themselves.

if you are to stupid to admit that capitalism causes criminals then i rest my case.

anyway what i am saying by telling you that most of those scientist and inventors are european is that the come from europe and lived there and that environment caused them to be like they are and only went to America because they saw a greater opportunity to develop what the imagined or invented or whatever.

also freedom is abused like you say thats why one should not have complete freedom if the mind is not intend to do good!!!! every right has a responsibility and the responsibility of freedom is to not abuse it and if you abuse it you should not have it until you earn it!!!

"If you are too stupid to see capitalism creates crime"

Are you so stupid you believe the right to own property is responsible for crime? Oh Someone has something I want so I must steal. It's not my fault if they didn't have anything I wouldn't have stolen it.

Is this your logic?
You are a detriment to your own cause.
Okay where to begin.

Guess it's best to show why you aren't a credible source for opinions concerning America.

"Your STUPID country"
Clearly biased. You hate my country and it's now clear. You are in no position to tell anyone what my country should or shouldn't be doing.
You aren't grateful for a single thing my countrymen have brought you and your people.
Your true feelings have been exposed. Deal with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I2UBjpoYbg

here are 120 American Inventions that shaped..no Created the modern world.

Go ahead and dispute this. I'm sure someone with such a deep seeded hatred for my country can't even stomach watching all the marvelous things we have introduced into this world of ours.

Now you say without capitalism there would be next to no crime?
Way to make yourself look even dumber.
Look at every other country in the world. There are criminals EVERYWHERE. Your claim Im sure is that capitalism infiltrated those countries and is the direct influence or reason for crime there. Look at every country in the past before there was capitalism. Are you saying crime only began after the founding of America?
Clearly not so. Crime is independent of capitalism.

You are also saying in your own words that those people went to America because of the better opportunities we have here. OBVIOUSLY. Thank you for making my point.
Capitalism=opportunity=GOOD

You are just blaming America because it's the in thing to do these days.

Now for the THIRD TIME. American isn't a specific race. American means Every person who had the courage to cross oceans and continents to come together and all do their best to achieve regardless of race gender or creed.

Pay attention. Those men where just as American as me. My family on the german side both sets of great grandparents arrived here before ww1. The Native American side was well native. The point is most of my ancestry was immigrants. But I can assure you like most immigrants the moment they decide this is where they want to live and procreate they see themselves as American the moment they arrive.
Don't you diminish my country because yours hasn't accomplished a tenth of what mine has. How does your racial demographic look in your country? Yeah we aren't a homogenous race. We are defined as a race based on our Ideals and allegiance.
If you ask yourself once more.

Why America?
Why did my country succeed in creating all these things?
Capitalism. The freedom to own produce and sell property.

Once more Capitalism has NOTHING to do with crime or foreign policy.

You keep equating Capitalism to our government. It's not. Our government is a Democratic Republic. Our countries economic policy is capitalism. See the difference? Are you capable of discerning the difference?

Capitalism ONLY applies to things that this very sentence directly affects. The right to own sell and produce property.

How can you say property rights are to blame for crime?

You attack Capitalism because you know that destroying America financially is the only way to destroy America. You cannot defeat our military so you want to steal a play from our playbook and collapse us financially.

You want America out of the picture. I ask you who will replace us? One of two countries have the power to do this.
Russia
China
Would you feel better with them being the major influence across the world?

Your views are not moral views. You are not Morally apposed to capitalism. You cannot be apposed to a system of government that allows the individual to own sell and produce property.

If you appose the basic freedoms protected by capitalism you are an enemy to the entire free world.

Please learn the difference between a economic policy and the type of government enacting that economic policy.

Are you smart enough to understand what I'm saying or are you just going to squeeze your eyes closed and continue to shout NO YOU! NO YOU!

I'm ashamed for you.

you are right i have a hatred for your country, but not the people, the policies your country live by i hate. and before capitalism existed some sort of capitalism existed not defined as capitalism but people had some right to do some of the things that is defined in capitalism, but capitalism creates the opportunity for crime, it did not create it, i was wrong there, but it did enhance them. therefore crime became more.


i do understand that an economic policy and a government type are deferent, i am sorry for mixing it up. i do not want to continue this in this way because my hatred for the American governments economic policy is influencing me in a way that i see everything American bad. i admit this and you helped me see that not everything of America is bad.

but i still do not agree with you "Capitalism=opportunity=GOOD" because i believe the last part is bad, because it causes a society who doesn't care for its fellow humans.

i have stated again and again why i dislike capitalism and i thank you because each time i expanded it because you criticized me, by criticism i can grow. again i thank you for the experience. if there is anything else please do continue, and i will try to exclude my hatred for America so that my logic can be more accurate.

I'll bet 1 CTL star this will get to 9 pages of unreadable flaming. Any takers?

well then i guess your star is gone.

It ain't over til it's over.

wise words.