Body scanners - Page 2

I guess what I am trying to get at is that by taking away this liberty it is not that great in that really the scanners only serve as one purpose. To remove dangerous material from an airplane which would prevent the means of political violence. Where as say installing cameras at the airport could be used to gather information on terrorists but also civilians it could serve a dual purpose and therefore is a more dangerous attack to civil liberties. I'm saying that this is small in comparison to having cameras at the airport. Why don't people find that weird?

I understand that this is an attack to civil liberties here. I understand it is demeaning that we have to go through this and it would be better if we didn't have to. I understand that the possibilities of terrorist attack are small but it is possible that such an attack is small because of the security measures. It is possible that what causes terrorist attacks to be low is the fact that there are security measures. It is possible that by keeping technology progressing in airport security we are staying one step ahead of the terrorists.

In the other thread what I am protesting is that America and its firms attack the sovereignty of other nations. In that attack America does what will serve its best interests and not that of the nation. In this thread I am saying that airport security keeps people safer than without it. It violates civil liberties in the name of preventing political violence. I'm saying that I would have greater fear about cameras than say these scanners. The scanners I believe will really make the chance of political violence to near impossible.

I understand that it is hypocritical to say I hate America and then at the same time to say that this is ok. The reason I give the ok is that the scanners do not produce information that could be used against you that say even something as simple as cameras would do, it serves one purpose. Where as the question of a nations sovereignty is really America and its firms imposing policies and dominating them militarily, politically, and economically. Modern day imperialism!

I honestly dont give flying fuck wheher or not those scanners are installed. My point was against Mutnuaq. I though he was over reacting about some pervert behind the screen of the scanner beating off to the blue, undetailed figure of his daughter(not like they are trained professionals or anything). Mutnuaq is looking at this from a completely different point of veiw than awakened or Ironwood. He is worried about his daughter's "tits and pussy"(do you have no modesty?), you are concerned about the "freedom". Now, i know, these can be considered one in the same. But in this case, they are not one in the same.

My point was in telling him why i thought he was overreacting. I disagree with him and he calls me a fool, among other things.

I dont give a shit how this turns out. Just like global warming and abortions. It is a controvercial issue that will probably never be resolved. And arguing about it with yall wont change my opinion, nor will i change yours. And that was never my intentions. Like i said, i was just telling him why i thought he was overreacting.

"Engaging in security theater."

Sure the TSA is made of buffoons, but this is outright deception.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

See that's the difference jacker when people have nothing to hide that could be used against them they'd rather hide their wives and childrens bodies from strangers instead of giving them away to keep our secrets safe. It's obvious you have a serious hidden problem. Thanks for pointing this out for me. You can't hide it now. There is only ONE reason you'd prefer the children and wives of every families naked bodies being recorded overyour conversations and dealings. You're putting good peoples innocence behind your sins. You'd rather use that as a shield to deflect from increased surveillance which would expose something negative about you that you shouldn't have in the first place.

As for being "trained" oblivion those were lowclass rentacops and straight power tripping assholes that do those checks. Ever been to the airport and see those jokers? They are aggressive and ignorant rent a cops. Not highly trained intelligence operatives. So NO I don't trust them to professionally look at such things, especially without cause.

"It violates civil liberties in the name of preventing political violence."

Jacker, I don't think you know what America is about. American spirit anyway.

America, above all other things, should stand for freedom, and if anybody, at all, should try to TAKE American freedom, for any reason, Americans should band together to protect freedom.

Freedom to Americans is the most important thing on this planet.

If you are a terrorist and you are trying to destroy America, land of the FREE? What do you do? Take their freedom.

You say that taking small portions of civil liberty, otherwise known as freedom, (Give me Freedom or give me Death. - Patrick Henry, Founding Father), is worth airport safety. I say, as a freedom loving American, if you attempt to take my freedom, I will take your life. For If you take my freedom, you will have my life.

Body scanners are a civil unjust, and to allow it to happen is cowardly. As you yourself have pointed out.

Jacker.

By your standards and anaylysis, I have to point out that body scanners are but another stepping stone.

It is a concept that you suddenly don't get.

Tjeu are already working on mind reading machines, believe it or not. If you don't like cameras, well I hate to be the one to inform you, but thats what body scanners are, not to mention the next step.

Again though, I must repeat, body scanners are no help when bombs still pass through luggage detection let alone dwoning planes from the ground.

YOu can't run from terrorism, as a matter of fact, the worst terrorism normally needing defense is from oppressive governments manipulating citizens.

You can think that reliquishing your rights is ok for gaining security all you like, but the second you try to take my freedom for your security I'll always, though unfortunately, defend myself and my rights to our deaths.

If you want to be brainwashed into being a slave that's fine, try to take me with you, I'll put you down myself.

Your justifications for loss of liberties is understandable, your naive fealty in believing in the those you are relinquishing your power to is at the least questionable, your desire to strip others of their rights in protest in succession is unconscionable.

Again, your point would have some room for validation if these scanners were safe, their data secure and unmolested, as well as their purpose and intentions relevant and useful, which they can easily be argued to be anything but, regardless of your incessant justifications on naively biased grounds.

Therefore either you need to illuminate us on why we simply dont get your point or wise up. Without repeating your challenged, or perhaps defeated, defenses.

We could waterboard all passengers as well, that could in theory increase security, yes, it would infringe on liberties, but it would serve the overall security of the collective, and isn't that more important?

How does one judge, qualify, and validate abuses of ones rights and freedoms?

Yes, you could be allowed to cross the street, but since you may wish to make a political point of your emo nature due to societies changes in light of dual income dependant households and lacking parenting, that you may wish to make such statement by throwing yourself in front of a car therefore we should mentally and physically detain and strip search you before allowing access to such potentially volitile means of political terrorism.

I.e keeping you from accessing point a to point b, for whatever purpose we deem fit. And only allowing such access when it fits our deem.

Very poingiant mr wraith

thank you

Let me just reiterate and elucidate on a point made by most of us.

There is no differentiation between terrorising people to give up their rights for oppression or "security".

Because what is the point of security, to preserve life, but what is life without freedom, slavery and oppression, court ruled to not be life at all.

Therefore, if you are fighting, unless you are fighting for freedom, you are simply fighting those who are.

Ok so to decius' points than would it not be that it is the government run organization who would be wrong? Not the body scanners. It looks as if there are problems with how the organization is run and the violation of rights they impede not the scanners.

Ironwood don't use strawman logic. Actually refute my claims which I will restate.

1) the scanners violate less civil liberties than cameras in that the scanners only serve one purpose. It is a simple picture, and then another picture. The government gains nothing. A camera on the other hand can serve multi purposes. They can be used to gather information on innocent civilians.
2) The scanners run under private organizations have only 20% of bombs going through. 80% of possible terrorism eliminated at the source according to decius point.
3) The problem lies with the government organization and its abuse of serious rights such as theft of property and sexual harassment.

As to awakend's point that "America is free" America has more government enforcement agencies than any other nation. Local police, highway patrol, DEA, FBI, ATF, huge military, CIA, secret service and more that I probably don't even know about. You call getting your picture taken twice when you have to catch an airplane a violation of freedom when you have that many enforcement agencies???? COME ON! This is small potatoes! Its nothing!

You are being childish jacker. You are choosing to ignore what i am saying and choosing to take me out of context.

I put this line in my post for a specific reason.

"Jacker, I don't think you know what America is about. American spirit anyway."

You do not understand what I am trying to tell you, and you are refusing to try. You are also refusing to accept that there is a possibility that your view is wrong and mine is right. You are being childish, please, I am asking you, accept this and please be humble.

Let me ask you this question, did you start your reply, in your head, before you read my entire post?

Pictures don't see anything people wouldn't already be seeing while you are in a store or on the street, If you're in public and you are behaving like you are in public then a picture isn't taking away from civil liberties. How many people see you clothed in the street a day? Now how many people see you nude? You cannot honestly think getting a picture taken while in public is more of an invasion than scanning peoples naked bodies espesially if those people being scanned includes women and children<That's just insanity>.

Also those scanners you are talking about are they the old ones or the new ones? Because if they are the old ones you aren't even making the same argument anymore you would be arguing that the old scanners if done right are sufficient and we don't even need body scanners in that case. Please clarify for me.

When I looked at that site it said nothing about nude body scanners those recently came it, it was about the luggage scanners and people catching fake bombs with the traditional methods.

So in conclusion you are saying that if they just did their jobs right in the first place we wouldn't need them? Like I said? So you also admit that they shouldn't be in the governments hands because it will lead to sexual abuse? Jacker seriously. Think. Then speak. Don't just feel then react with words.

No straw man argument here. Your complaining about variances in context, something you are initiating.

Yes, it can be argued that filming behavior can be invasive. That is no ones point but your own. Yes, cameras everywhere is also an issue, many would agree, and yes, America is way over militarized and policed.

A point abouit those facts is that this is the point we are at, how we got here is by continually allowing increases in invasive and oppressive measures, hence an arguement against yet another far more invasive imaging technique.

To return america to its days of freedom we must first turn the tide of the continual loss of freedom, then start undoing damage that has been done.

And as Mut mentioned, naked body imaging is unarguably far more invasive and illegal under most circumstances without your expressed consent, consent a minor is not even allowed to give without parental permission.

Again I also have to argue your point, which is sensible enough in one context, about the single picture not being a problem theory, but in context of what an oppressive government can do to harm a nation with such a technique more than any single image produced.

As you agreed it is degrading and invasive for one. Used as a continued tool of generating subserviance and relinquishing liberty. A core point of which prompted me to bother to make an arguement at all.

I don't agree with the logic behind the acceptance of such measures used in air travel in general. If you blow up a busy store on land you easily kill just as many people or more, hell blocking an exit and starting a fire at a night club has proven equally as fatal, I don't want these facts being used to justify loss of rights entering a store or night club either. But court rooms and even many schools already employ just such airport security measures, a progressive increase.

Which is part of what I'm trying to stop. Because these attempts and acts wear at peoples judgements and even you eventually find a way to justify giving up liberty for security, which ends up giving you neither. And even worse your willing to take others freedom away as well.

I agree to Ironwood's point that there is the possibility of a slippery slope. But it is also possible that it could work the other way in that the scanners are new and could get more effective. The theory behind them is good. To commit a terrorist act you need a weapon. By eliminating the weapon, you eliminate terrorism. You eliminate the means of terrorism. If the theory works then less security will be needed which could possibly reduce control of society.

It is well known that terrorists often choose airplanes for terrorist activity.

It's possible to work on these government agencies. For instance there is less corruption with RCMP than with American police. There must be something different done. There is less corruption to Private security officials to the TSA. There must be something different that these organizations do and we should try and incorporate what ever this factor may be.

I know you all don't agree with me but it is possible that such scanners could be beneficial to society.

Stop using just learned info from decius as if its just some casual thing you know. Also Obama said it was a result of intel not being responded to the way it should. So the need for one of those isn't there. Your goal now in your posts is to establish acceptance you aren't even saying anything at this point.

Jacker, you are entirely missing our point.

We aren't saying that body scanners can not provide a sense of security, as far as preventing things onto planes. If anybody ever said that body scanners will do NOTHING for security that are retarded. What I am saying is that they are 100 percent unnecessary and that they take freedom away, and that freedom is more important than safety.

on A side note, You should read my posts more carefully, I get the feeling that you do not respect what I have to say therefor do not read all of it. I didn't say that America, as of today, in its entirety, stands for truth and freedom. I said that American spirit stands for freedom. You said that we have more systems of monitoring than anyone else. Aside from that fact that I could easily debate as to why that's ok, you are only saying what we are all saying.

I told you America is about freedom, you said yeah right look at all the invasive monitoring you guys have. I said I dont want these scanners, they are too invasive, you said that they are a good idea. I said that freedom is important to Americans, like myself.....

Do you see where you aren't making any sense and you are still being a hypocrite?

"It is well known that terrorists often choose airplanes for terrorist activity."

Furthermore, you act like you have the knowledge of upper CIA agents. If you wanted to destroy America jacker, would you do it by crashes planes into things? You are being force fed conventional knowledge and you are allowing yourself to be manipulated. Have you ever once even sat down and thought about why they have used planes? Its not to deal damage, as I'm sure you ignored Ironwoods previously stated point, it is to get on tv and cause fear. FEAR that will steal FREEDOM, which will destroy America. Something I have also said before.

You seem to underestimate the slyness of the people taking MY freedom. You think they arent smarter than you? or me? or decius? or anyone else you know? They are the smartest on the planet and they are using obvious tricks for a reason. So that way people that think they are intelligent will say, "Cmon, its not really that big of a deal. Its not like they trying to take away our freedom, its just to protect us."

George Orwell?

"The theory behind them is good."

You think that you know the "Theory"? Another pseudo-intelligent arrogant statement. Again you are an expert in matter of American homeland security. I mean, you do watch the news, and if its on tv, it must be fact.

By the way, the Jews have all the money, we gotta take 'em out.

"To commit a terrorist act you need a weapon. By eliminating the weapon, you eliminate terrorism. "

Again an expert. Have you ever heard of the cold war? Wanna know why it was cold, there were no weapons, yet it was a war that cause children in class rooms to hide under their desks incase the Soviet was coming to get them. You don't need a weapon, you just need an idea. And you are entirely misinformed on what terror is all about. It is not about hurting, it is about causing fear. Americans were scared to hell in the cold war, but there were no weapons.

Now, I know in that brilliant mind of yours your already thinking of why I am wrong and you are right, and I'm sure one of your arguments are gonna go something like this.

The Soviets had a bunch of weapons, they just didn't use them. Now now Jacker, are you saying that we ASSUME that terrorist have WEAPONS? Well Jacker, should we take their weapons from them? How do you know they have those weapons? You don't? Maybe we should go look for them.

you are using the exact same logic of George Bush, someone I'm sure you're not too fond of.

You are not making any sense, and nothing you are saying has merit or foundation.

Did South Park do an episode on body scanners or something?

So you are saying that there are people who take time out of there day to lobby government to put scanners in airports so that they will take your freedom away? They crave society with no freedom? You may call me naive or childish but the real reason they put these scanners up is for money. When 9/11 happened the airline industry went bankrupt. They care much more about making money than taking your freedom. The only reason they take your freedom is because it interrupts business.

Putting the scanners up will only hurt business by slowing down the time through security. They will be able to get less people through security. This shows that the risk of a terrorist act hurts the airline industry more than making people wait in line to go through the gate and the controversy of the scanners. They are looking after their wallets, they probably wish they did not need the extra security in that they wish they could get more people on to planes.

Try to see that this action is much less than what they already take away from you. They take a million times this through enforcement agencies through income tax by saying where you work how much you make etcetera. That is a violation of freedom. This is peanuts.

I believe there are people who are terrorists. I do not believe in zeitgeist. I respect your opinion and is possible you are right, but this is such a small violation of freedom in retrospect to what they already take. There is also reasoning behind it, there are people who are terrorists who would like to say fuck America by crashing a plane into the white house.

And haha no I don't think southpark did an episode on body scanners. I don't watch much TV either unless it is sports.