Religion fear tactics - Page 2

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If people are so apathetic to let a private business or corporation get out of control and don't organize some kind of boycott to stop it (the people hold the real leverage in any situation), then I think they deserve whatever oppression they experience.

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This is exactly right.

And to further the point, allowing yourself to become dependent on such entities will develop just such fear based apathy and the inevitable ignorance that comes with it.

Though there is more to it due to deception and manipulation of people through very sophisticated means that we currently face.

An issue that has occurred because just such scenarios as you describe

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What's effecting people on a local level is what they should concern themselves with as they are the most informed people to do so.

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that is how the gold smith became the banker and then the champion and eventual corruptor of the fiat money system.

But it all comes down to people giving up their responsibilities to stay vigilant, informed, and self reliant.

What irony it would be to see the dumbing of the world as the solution to the sophistication of corruption.

Too stupid to see or care about the intricacies needed to bamboozle a once sophisitcated society that they only see the basics again and therefore the corrupt foundations, sad but slightly reassuring.

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"That's weird, it sounds like nature to me."

Ahh yes nature, monkeys eating each others shit, reproducing to the point of over population, inability to develop advance technology. All amazing things that I would love to participate in.

Sadly I can not, my ability to reason with reality and understand humans inherent nature is that of survival. Understanding that one can understand that people will do what ever it takes to survive. Allowing them to cheat, steal and emotionally control others as long as their given "abilities" would allow them to.

This kind of philosophy is the kind that couldn't rationalize mother hood but can justify using a downs child to do physical labor because they are not "savvy" enough to work for themselves.

This sort of thought is narcissistic and does not understand humans ability to turn the other cheek.

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This kind of philosophy is the kind that couldn't rationalize mother hood but can justify using a downs child to do physical labor because they are not "savvy" enough to work for themselves.

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I don't need to rationalize mother hood. In that case, there are two consenting parties and I see nothing criminal about such an act.

As for the downs child, if his parents or guardians get him a job doing physical labor and he consents to it, where is the crime in that?

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Ahh yes nature, monkeys eating each others shit, reproducing to the point of over population, inability to develop advance technology. All amazing things that I would love to participate in.

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Where is the study where monkeys were reproducing into overpopulation? I haven't heard of that.

So you are arguing that humans are above and beyond nature? We do live on a giant round planet we call the Earth and as far as I know was not created by any man. If we are so dependent on this rock we call Earth, how can we claim that we are beyond it and beyond the very same laws that achieve equilibrium when we don't intervene?

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Sadly I can not, my ability to reason with reality and understand humans inherent nature is that of survival. Understanding that one can understand that people will do what ever it takes to survive. Allowing them to cheat, steal and emotionally control others as long as their given "abilities" would allow them to.

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Zach, do you really think that a person who owns a company in a laissez-faire market is worrying about survival at that point? People will do whatever it takes in dire situations. In a situation of general security, those survival functions are turned off. A free market does not put everyone in a dire situation and there is no evidence to support this claim - this makes me think that this is rhetorical masturbation from you. If you can provide evidence, I ask that you do so the next time you make an outrageous claim like that.

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This sort of thought is narcissistic and does not understand humans ability to turn the other cheek.

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Are you really equating personal responsibility and vigilance with narcissism? C'mon man! Really?

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"I don't need to rationalize mother hood"

Mother hood is the act of nurturing a child not having sex.

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"As for the downs child, if his parents or guardians get him a job doing physical labor and he consents to it, where is the crime in that?"

Because manipulating people with the equivalent intelligence of child is not fair or ethically correct.

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"So you are arguing that humans are above and beyond nature? "

No, I'm saying that when we take it upon are self's as a race to try and defy nature then we should take responsibility for such actions and not conduct are selves as primitive animals.

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"do you really think that a person who owns a company in a laissez-faire market is worrying about survival at that point?"

Survival is not turned off. Greed is drawn from fear, fear is the base of survival.

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"Are you really equating personal responsibility and vigilance with narcissism?"

If we all did what we were supposed to, would we have need for government?

I'm not going to respond to you anymore in this thread Zach. I see it's pointless. You don't want to consider my views and because of this you're only seeing what you WANT to see.

Debating with you is like riding on a merry-go-round...

Round and round you go, endlessly, and you never really get anywhere..

And just for the record I know what mother hood is, you misinterpreted what I wrote.

Belittle my points with opinions it makes no difference to me. I wrote with honesty and belief behind my thoughts and did not quit on them when they were challenged.

I just spent this last week educating children in an underprivileged school on the spread of disease and the prevention spreading such germs and such.

I thought about this on a car ride home, I would like to know where these principles of immediate parties involved and opportunity lie in children who at the mature age 7-8 years old, who due to their environment call people by their skin color not by their name. Who can't speak in complete sentences and have cops coming to an elementary school.

How do they fall in this equation or do they have different levels of opportunity.

(by the way I saw this all in less then six eight hour of being there)

I've decided to continue posting in this thread despite what I said earlier for the purpose of disseminating ideas that are either being ignored or avoided. If you're interested in free market, laissez-faire economics then check out this website: http://mises.org/

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Because manipulating people with the equivalent intelligence of child is not fair or ethically correct.

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So according to your doctrine, anyone with the equivalent intelligence of a child, no matter how old, is personally exempt from all labor and services and receives a free ride at the expense of the general public. Am I correct in assuming this?

I ask you, using your reasoning, what's to stop a person who is actually quite intelligent from pretending to be dumb in order to reap these welfare benefits? How will you police people from exploiting this public service and who will fund this policing?

"The American tax payers will fund the policing." So instead of the parents or siblings of this mentally challenged person giving him a more exacting support catered to him based on personal experience with him (and supporting him out of love and concern), it's a better idea to have the public fund a "one-size-fits-all" version which may be too big or too small.

And all this because it's not ethically correct for someone with the mental capacity of a child to support himself doing labor he consents to.

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How do they fall in this equation or do they have different levels of opportunity.

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I'd say the same people that are volunteering already, such as yourself, will be the ones to help out and the free market will take care of the rest. It won't happen overnight though which is what everybody wants.

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"no matter how old, is personally exempt from all labor and services and receives a free ride at the expense of the general public."

Any system is sustainable to abuse.

Physical labor is something however that without a comprehension of the repercussion can seriously hurt someone. Flipping burgers at McDonald's holds (all and all) a lot lower risk of throwing someone back out while allowing income to be made.

This however is very specific and doesn't need to be. The point I was trying to make is people incapable of creating betterment for one reason or another, how do you compensate for them in this equation.

I understand free market and I also understand that freeman him self said the free market is only meant to benefit the top 1/3 of a society.

I as someone concerned with the benefit of all and not myself and those close to me, am searching for an answer. I would like to know from anyone how to do plan on helping the bottom 2/3 of the world (the majority of people) other then people Should do the right thing.

People should do the right thing now but don't. If you have an answer I would love to hear it.

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Any system is sustainable to abuse.

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...some less so than others. There were necessary precautions that even the founding fathers felt the free-market needed when they drew up the Constitution. Specifically that gold and silver coin money would be the only legal tender... you turn your head for one second...

Did you happen to glance at the inevitable consequences I outlined from your want of socialization? Do you realize the excessive burden everyone has to bear because you don't think people can take care of themselves and the things they care for?

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Physical labor is something however that without a comprehension of the repercussion can seriously hurt someone. Flipping burgers at McDonald's holds (all and all) a lot lower risk of throwing someone back out while allowing income to be made.

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C'mon man, there's a differences between getting someone to make themselves useful and putting them in a sweatshop. And why is it that you assume these handicapped people don't want to be a help to themselves and those around them and do something productive?

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This however is very specific and doesn't need to be. The point I was trying to make is people incapable of creating betterment for one reason or another, how do you compensate for them in this equation.

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The people who care about them and others like them will volunteer to help out. Not to mention, if we adopted a strictly free-market economy, the standard of living would inevitably go up, probably to the point where even a beggar could get by without too much trouble.

Zach, the government is not some magical, superhuman thing. It's made up of people with the same corruptibility as you or me. And these people, who are supposedly trustworthy with our money, are elected by the same mass of people (by majority vote) that you claim not to trust. There's a contradiction here. If the majority of the people are evil like you think they are, then why do we have so many politicians running campaigns based on welfare and taxing the wealthy 3%?

Think about that.

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I understand free market and I also understand that freeman him self said the free market is only meant to benefit the top 1/3 of a society.

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I don't blindly trust anyone's opinion and I hope this freeman guy has some evidence to support this claim. What's his full name and what is his reasoning for this?

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I as someone concerned with the benefit of all and not myself and those close to me, am searching for an answer. I would like to know from anyone how to do plan on helping the bottom 2/3 of the world (the majority of people) other then people Should do the right thing.

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What makes you think you can impose your morals on other people? In a free market you can devote your time and effort to however you see fit, just like everyone else; no special privileges. How would you like it if someone forced you to do something that did not agree with your morals?

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"Did you happen to glance at the inevitable consequences I outlined from your want of socialization? Do you realize the excessive burden everyone has to bear because you don't think people can take care of themselves and the things they care for?"

I noticed your opinion but I'm sorry I must have missed the part with factual information. Please present.

This is going to get off topic because I feel it is necessary.

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"I don't blindly trust anyone's opinion and I hope this freeman guy has some evidence to support this claim. What's his full name and what is his reasoning for this?"

I apologize I had the name wrong but either way "Milton Friedman" is the name you should research. The creator of modern free market systems. So yes as far as this topic goes I trust everything he writes because he created the bible for the modern worship the wealth and fuck the poor attitude.

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"C'mon man, there's a differences between getting someone to make themselves useful and putting them in a sweatshop. And why is it that you assume these handicapped people don't want to be a help to themselves and those around them and do something productive?"

So Asian sweatshop labors are a result of what? As far as I've been informed China has the freest market in the world and I do believe they have sweatshops. More importantly these people do not have a way out and people know this and still buy product made there.

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"Zach, the government is not some magical, superhuman thing."

And total Independence from a system is just another way of saying a total escape from responsibility.

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"There's a contradiction here. If the majority of the people are evil like you think they are, then why do we have so many politicians running campaigns based on welfare and taxing the wealthy 3%?"

You assume that I support are modern government. Which isn't correct.

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"What makes you think you can impose your morals on other people?"

Umm my morals are not perfect but that has nothing to do with this. I don't pretend to be righteous in my efforts. I just believe everyone deserves certain things, that by being born you have access to basic needs. If you would like to construe this point into lazy poor folks won't work. Then that's your fault, but there are a lot of hard working people out there that don't get what they deserve.

Hard working people have the right to be treated like people even if what they work for isn't money.

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"How would you like it if someone forced you to do something that did not agree with your morals?"

Like corporate slavery. The inability to love one another because we are competing instead of caring. Elitism. Yes I would be pissed, am and will be.

Where do I even begin...

Could you get me a link for the Milton Friedman quote? I read the entire Wikipedia on him and, from what I've gathered, it doesn't seem like something he'd say.

Here's some quotes by him that I think are extremely relevant to this thread:

"A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. "

"History suggests that capitalism is a necessary condition for political freedom."

"Governments never learn. Only people learn. "

"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."

"Many people want the government to protect the consumer. A much more urgent problem is to protect the consumer from the government."

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/milton_friedman.html

There's so many good ones... but I'll stop there.

And he's not the creator of modern free market systems. The idea of the free market isn't modern at all. Adam Smith was well before Friedman and there was probably someone before him. Perhaps you meant to say Friedman helped bring the idea to popularity.

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I noticed your opinion but I'm sorry I must have missed the part with factual information. Please present.

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Read it over again and explain to me what part isn't a logical deduction and what parts you disagree with.

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So yes as far as this topic goes I trust everything he writes because he created the bible for the modern worship the wealth and fuck the poor attitude.

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The free market is not designed, nor is it rigged, to "fuck the poor." Anyone who gets screwed, under fair circumstances, probably deserves it, whether by lack of focused effort or effort in general. You can try jumping to the moon for your entire life but unless you get your hands on a rocket ship, you're not getting there.

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So Asian sweatshop labors are a result of what? As far as I've been informed China has the freest market in the world and I do believe they have sweatshops. More importantly these people do not have a way out and people know this and still buy product made there.

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You're mistaken. Hong Kong is one of the freest markets in the world, and as far as I know, it's a sovereign nation. The rest of China is under complete control of the government. China had a very controlled economy for many years, and it was under a communist regime - if anything, doesn't the evidence point to socialism as the cause of all this suffering?

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And total Independence from a system is just another way of saying a total escape from responsibility.

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Actually it would be total IMMERSION into responsibility. You help yourself and you help everyone else. You help everyone else and you help yourself. It works both ways, but you can't help others until you, yourself, are taken care of. It's kind of ironic that you came to the exact opposite of the logical conclusion of this claim.

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You assume that I support are modern government. Which isn't correct.

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Well then what type of government do you support?

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I don't pretend to be righteous in my efforts. I just BELIEVE everyone deserves certain things, that by being born you have access to basic needs.

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You base the justification to force your will on others on your BELIEF. I'm sure there are many people who would love to force their beliefs on others too...

I would be content if everyone was entitled to their own beliefs and was allowed the freedom and liberty to choose what they think is best for them. Lord save me from this "worship the rich and fuck the poor" indoctrination!

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there are a lot of hard working people out there that don't get what they deserve.

Hard working people have the right to be treated like people even if what they work for isn't money.

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If you just keep jumping maybe you'll get there...

Working for money doesn't make you evil. At any rate, how do you decide what a person deserves for their work if not through the mechanism of supply and demand?

Here's a great article on the common misconceptions of what it means to be a "volunteer."

http://mises.org/story/2962

well if i had cancer. and didnt know, i would fear someone telling me. it would scare me. but it was necessary. and ultimately helped me. Unfortunately there are a lot of folks who do things just for the sake of doing them. And luckily, or forunately, there are those who live for something much greater than themselves, who do things out of love, gratitude, and knowledge. These are the ones, that if they scare you with something, perhaps it is a good thing. But check it, to see if its true. Because if it is, w/e they meant by it, however you took it...doesnt matter. Just only that it is truth.


you know the quote at the bottom of this page. beneath the captain cynic emblem. Is in the bible? i found that interesting. 1corinthians 13:11 it is really an incredible verse. truly. if i may, i would like to expound on that a bit. it uhm. its only a part if you will, that verse. that small part. and what is so intriguing, is that entire passage its found in, speaks of love being the most important thing. And above all else, everything is just a part.

all of corinthians 13. beautiful.

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well if i had cancer. and didnt know, i would fear someone telling me. it would scare me. but it was necessary. and ultimately helped me.

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Your analogy does not fit.

It assumes that religions know something definitive worth telling you.

And I find that assumption highly debateable if not wholey incorrect given the known somethings in question are the claimed definitions of god and claims of knowledge of god's, or the creator's, intents.

Scaring someone into being a good and loving person, regardless of the paradoxical rediculousness yet reality of the concept, again, is but a concept independant of, yet overly attributed to and abused by, religion as a tactic, as an means to an end.

And regardless of some people's quibblings and dismissiveness towards arguments against the use of religion as a means of social control, due to its other aspects and intentions, it is a point worth bringing up.

Another being that it is a means of guiding through forced fear based ignorance.

To guide one towards loving through fear and ignorance is stifling their ability to be loving AND free willed.

The latter being point missed entirely by the rediculous and intentionally distracting non debate that allows ones freedom to be stolen, which again is the point of bringing up religion as an institution of control.

To further elaborate, this is all regardless of the intention of the followers, the point is the ends intended by the use of such means by the authortative "leaders" that they follow.

Yep Ironwood

Thats very true what you said