Prove the existence of god - Page 3

Yes, the word god does exist, I had thought it self evident, but I "proved" it none the less.

quote:

---

God is the word used to represent the generalized concept of the unseen and indefinable creative force behind all known existance.

---

Proof of God is itself impossible. Proof is denoting a purely scientific term that requires direct observable evidence in order to arrive at a proof of thesis. This is manifestly impossible because, if you begin with the assumption that God exists, God is, by definition, invisible and unknowable in its entirety. As such, God cannot be observed in the entirety and cannot be proven.

I am by nature a theist; however, I am not totally following a religion at the moment. But my thesis/theory of God is not based on being forced feed doctrine, as some people have suggested. I use cold hard logic and cannot arrive at any conclusion without rigorous testing of my hypothesis. Overall, I could not post this here as I could write a treatise on the subject that would fill volumes. My main argument therefore rests on the fact that God, by not being observable, is therefore unprovable but not necessarily untrue.

Therefore, we have theories of God that have manifested as religion. The thing to remember so far is that this is totally a modernised Westernised view of God. If you were to ask an ancient Egyptian to prove the existence of God, they would simply point to the Pharaoh. Nothing you say or do could prove them wrong. So the argument is centred on a Judeo-Christian-Islamic perception of a revealed God (I don't include Hindu religious aspects, and its derivatives, due to the complex nature of this belief system and the seeming Christian tendency contained within this forum).

This is what ultimately causes the friction in trying to 'prove' God. You just cannot move across disciplines and religions as a whole. I finish with a P.S. to all those people who were saying that most philosophers are agnostics. The majority of philosophers throughout time have been religious and philosophy as a subject grew directly from an attempt to merge the observable world with the religious. Re-read Socrates if you disagree.

quote:

---

God is, by definition, invisible and unknowable in its entirety.

---

Actually, we don't know this for sure either.

By definition, within a Western Judeo-Christian view of God, God is unknowable. I repeat, by definition. This is not to say it is correct, however, if it is not correct then the Judeo-Christian God is wrong.

Alot of religious people may find this post upsetting. It isn't anti religious. Nor does it propose one religion over another. But it challenges their deep-seated beliefs, not by looking for contradictions in their writings. Or using another religion to put down theirs, saying 'this' religion offers something yours does not; therefore my religion must be the one true religion.

But it asks people to look at the way they are actually coming to their beliefs. I find the deeper and more complex the arguments become the easier it is to use camouflage and debating tricks to keep ones faith intact.

Thus instead of getting very deep, I have tried to explain religion as a metaphor which may challenge a few people who are not so sure of their beliefs and at times wonder if they are indeed correct.

As people who need to belong to somethung bigger then they are, or to have a sense of security over what happens when they die tend to be the ones who have the biggest doubts. And they are usually the ones who become fundamentalists. The ones who try so hard to "belive" they are willing to kill and die in order to convince themsleves God exists.

I dont want to dissuade anyone from having a set of beliefs that get them through life. Especially if it means they will use the more positive aspects of relion to be a better human.

But I want people to think of religion in the simple terms I put to them.

Place themselves in the situation I have created and then ask themlsves WHY they have these beliefs. And do they feel that looking at it the way I describe that they can be SO certain of something so ethereal... that for millennia people still cannot come to any one conclusion or agreement.




Religion seems to be one of he hottest topics in any forum. Not just in forums- but all over the world. People are willing to kill and die for their beliefs.

And each religion, while preaching love and understanding as its basic message wants to destroy all other religions.

I can see how in ancient times when your crops failed or lightning struck your house, you'd look up to the heavens for an answer. And people came up with theories based on their current knowledge of the world, their belief systems of their era and region.

Thus mighty, powerful versions of themselves who could do things like throw lightning bolts or call down a plague if they were angry at you were born. And they named these people Gods.

As time has progressed many religions have flourished then died. And only a few of the more tenacious ones have maged to survive into the age of science and logic.

And they all decry their God is the one true god. And all who believe in another god are doomed to hell. And that their ways of life are the holy ways and people who adhere to their ways will forever live in a place no one has ever seen- and all those who do not adhere will forever burn in some place no one has ever seen.

So the way I see it is like this:


We are all in this house, and there has always been this room on the top floor that has been locked. Always. It has never been opened. And being the curious creatures we are, we just so need to know what is behind it.

But there are no sounds coming from within. There are no clues about what it contains. Nothing comes out of the door and no one has ever been able to get past that locked door and see what's in the room behind it.

We have the entire house to ourselves and we can explore so many mysteries and we have evolved, learned, and even begun to shape the house to our needs.

But always, always at the back of our minds, the question of what is behind that door nags at us.

We have to know, we need to know.

And in our desperation we have begun to theorize on what it could be.

We have invented all kinds of things for this unknown place we can't see or communicate with.

The door remains locked and the room silent. And crowds of theological thinkers, and philosophers, and wise men and charlatans, have all stood before that door and wanted to know what lies behind it.

And many have come up with entire belief systems all about what's behind the door; entire ways of living. All in the hope of being rewarded by being allowed to see the mystery of what is actually behind it. Because only wonders could exist in a place that we aren't allowed access to.

It could be an empty room for all we as humans are aware. But we have filled it with Gods of all types, deities of all persuasions and rewards beyond our wildest dreams.

And yet.

NOT ONE SINGLE HUMAN HAS EVER SEEN WHAT IS INSIDE THAT ROOM.

It may well be that there is indeed some all powerful beings that created the house we live in and gave life to us and have set us up to try and figure the puzzle of what's in that room.

Or it may be something so totally alien to our thoughts that we are so far off track in what we comprehend it to be.

And arguments of what is behind the door have gone on since the room with this locked door first discovered. And wars and killings and abominable acts have all been committed, purely because some people have convinced themselves in their need to find meaning in their lives, that THEY KNOW what is behind that door. And it has spoken to them and they must heed the words or never be allowed to enter into the paradise that lies beyond the door.

And so, the debates rage on; and crusades and jihads rise up to prove what one man imagines in a room that no one has ever been into, is right about his imaginings.

There may very well be something all powerful beyond the door. There may be a dusty room with nothing in it. I have no idea.

And until that door is opened I am willing to keep an open mind.

But I will never fool myself into believing I KNOW what is there till that door unlocks and shows its contents to me.

Nice theory; well thought out. However, you say:

NOT ONE SINGLE HUMAN HAS EVER SEEN WHAT IS INSIDE THAT ROOM

This is a supposition. This is essentially what all prophets claim; that they have seen inside the room. What becomes distorted is how others then interpret the claims of the prophet or false prophets who have sought to deceive. As such, it does not follow that mankind has merely filled the room with wishful thinking.

If there is, as you say, an all powerful being inside, then it stands to reason that that being will seek to communicate with us. It would need to do so with care as anybody could take the truth and distort it for their own ends. As such, only a limited number of people will see inside. The closed room theory therefore breaks down.

Some very intelligent conversation in the post, I have enjoyed reading most of them.
I believe there are some thing that can not be proven.
I know what love is, but I can not prove it.
I know what feeling is, but I can not prove it to someone that can not feel.
I know what color is, but I can not prove it exist to someone that is blind.
I hear sounds and voices, but I can not prove it to someone that has always been deaf.
I have seen spirits, and felt to existence of an higher greater supernatural conscious power, and can not prove it happened.
I believe some power started all existence, and that this power is God.
I also, believe it is a conscious power, because I have conscious.
I have studied many different religous beliefs, and believe in the miracle of Jesus Christ. I do not try and disprove other faiths. I even believe some of the concepts of other faiths.
It is going to be wonderful adventure learning in the next life.

I agree but could all religions lead to the same god but by living in different cultures because they all share the same phrase i am the only god this could be the link

Sorry to go back to the first page but fireangel uh... the catholic religion is a satanist religion....

A DIRECT RESPONSE TO "OLD CORPS" - WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO YOUR SEARCH FOR TRUTH.


I believe there are some thing that can not be proven.

To be a "thing" it must exist, therefore can be
proved to exist.

I know what love is, but I can not prove it.

Sometimes to prove a thing you must prove what
it is not. The universe is this way, too large to
measure by our scale of perception.

I know what feeling is, but I can not prove it to someone that can not feel.

Any one with a single interest has these feelings
about their interest.... scientifically the first thing
experience whenever we hear a sound is -
Emotion

I know what color is, but I can not prove it exist to someone that is blind.

Alll Colors, like most religons' Names, is
a "Gerrund"...
Which is to say, a part of speach that dennotes
an Action (verb) that is at once also a Noun.

Color can be described as a physical motion
towards or away from a person (or their eyes)
by degree of intensity in energy or particle wave.

Therefore a blind person doesn't need to see it.
Technically, (one day), they will be able to feel it.

I hear sounds and voices, but I can not prove it to someone that has always been deaf.

"Ditto" - deaf is usually not total... but to the
hearing it would seem such... granted it were
"total" - it can be defined to the seeing-deaf
as color to the blind-hearing person... particle
wave theory only breaks down on the Macro
level when E no longer = mc squared.

I have seen spirits, and felt to existence of an higher greater supernatural conscious power, and can not prove it happened.

The "Truthful" are "Proof - full" - if one has
difficulty being believed it may be as much due
to "track record" and a vote of no-confidence, as
to a person's desire to hold to what is old and
tried not necessarily what is TRUE.

I believe some power started all existence, and that this power is God.
I also, believe it is a conscious power, because I have conscious.

Power is.....? Finish the statment. Supreme
Power is ...? "God"? Power is Conscious
because I am? I think therefore God is?

These leaps in linear logical thought are
consistent in the diatribe you present...
Is this the reason for an inability to sway the
thinking of truly conscious, however
disbelieving folk?

I have studied many different religous beliefs, and believe in the miracle of Jesus Christ. I do not try and disprove other faiths.

Arriving at a conclusion requires the
exclusion of some possibility... some if not
a majority, are wrong. The majority may be

I even believe some of the concepts of other faiths.
It is going to be wonderful adventure learning in the next life.

Of course in conclusion, with so little
of a thought process being truly thourough,
one, (you), MUST have FAITH, you actually
NEED it, by definition it is the hope of and for
things to be evidenced which are not seen.

AT THE END YOU BECOME NHILISTIC, SELF DESTRUCTIVE.

THIS LIFE IS NOT OVER FOR YOU YET, AND THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY THAT YOU DIDN'T FIGURE IT OUT.

NOT FOR A LACK OF DESIRE OR EFFORT... YOU MAY HAVE BEEN STEERED IN THE WRONG DIRECTION, PURPOSEFULLY, WILLFULLY OR NOT IT DOESN'T MATTER.

DON'T GIVE UP hope, JUST BELIEVE THAT GOD IS REAL, AND EVENTUALLY AFTER YOU HAVE EXHAUSTED ALL THE NEGATIVE PROOFS, YOU WOULD HAVE FOUND HER.

The Catholic Religon is NOT SATANIC, to be ignorant is not necessarily to be insultive.

The Pope wears a hat once a year that bears 666 on it, TRUE.

Each Pope also visits a Monostary I won't name, (if only to encourage your studies), where he kneels before an image of the Virgin Mary, with child in arms in the classical poses...
Painted by some of the oldest painter in the history of the European culture, as...

A Black Woman and Child.

To depict a man of Jeruselem from 2000 years ago, centuries before "Columbus" sailed... Jesus his family, people from middle North Africa, as caucasians simply because Michaelangelo used his cousin as a Model...?

Ludicrous as to imply the Catholic Religon itself is of the Devil.

People are the aim of the Religon, and some people are evil.

But it is not color bound.

Solomon said in the King James Version of the Bible:
"I am Black, but I am comely"

Black but attractive... beautiful.

It is not a crime to say something without foundation... it is merely an error... the purpose of a forum is for the people to educate one another.

While there have been Roman Emperors from Ethiopia, blacker than night...

It stands to reason that Slave trade did not originate with America the Beautiful

History gives us an idea of what is possible in human imagination... because it is usually written by the victors...

Who usually leave out their own best defenses in an effort to destroy their enemys' right down to the memory of them.

We all seem to have amnesia.

So you got from my one sentence saying that catholics are satanists that I meant its because you believe their is a black jesus. Well guess what so do I dumb ass.

The reason Catholics are blasphom (sp) and satanic is for many reasons. You call your priest "Father" and that is blasphomy because you are only meant to have God Father in Heaven and Your own biological father.
You pray to Mary your, "Queen of Heaven" which is blasphomy because you are meant to pray to God or Jesus.
The Pope has upside down crosses and skulls on his staff.
You have the all seeing eye ontop of the catholic church which is satanic. You also have it inside the churches. IF you don't believe me I can offer you pictures.

So...

xloobyloox -

I sure am glad we've contained this to privately seen emails...

kind of

Again, my first comment was not to embarass or JUST contradict you... it was to further and "foster" the debate...

These are FORUMS... basically all opinions are welcome.. especially ones that contradict... strange but true

Often times both sides of an argument can be argued very well.

The "SIDE" I "land" on is one of inclusiveness or "wholeistic" if you will.

Religion = a latin rooted word that means "Way of connecting to God"... it comes from a latin root word - "Religos"

God made up AND down, so to see Serpents wrapped around a staff to represent the field of Medicine...

Well that has roots in Egypt... you probally already know that..

Moses "lead" the children of Israel into a wasteland where they were bitten by poisones things... if they looked up at the Staff with that symbol they were healed, (By the God of Abraham)

It was a display of Faith as well as a display of the Awsome Power of God.

I also didn't "GET" anything from YOUR statement or sentence.. everything began before me and I realize this and Humble myself to any detraction that applies to me..

"Dumbass?"... LngOL... neither one of us can claim the title completely, but because mine is so scrawny and nearly embarassingly muscular... (I'll let you run with that one)... it may be the most ignorant part of me indeed...

See? You're right even though the way you express it is potentially erroneous...

I "GOT" the black thing from the Bible, (as I did mention), and Historical evidence, like your pictures and all other Historical evidence...

Blasphemy is only unforgiveable in Biblical Standards, (according to the scriptures we're discussing) if one were to Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit...

So YES, much of Catholic practice is unforgiveable by God's standards... which they should accept because they are "BASED" in part in HIS religion.

Nearly all else is forgiveable by God, so for humans to take a more (in any way more) tough position than the Creator, is to try and take His place by intellectual means... which should be impossible to agree with completely isn't it?

Your informed decisions are forgiveable, if in error only in part, due to a lack of time to study and inform them further...

Given oppurtunity to live, it you will out live me by nearly twice my age... You could be smarter than me now or have more knowledge even

... at any age...

Knowing how NOT to Do a thing is Wisdom... (per say)

So your approach I mostly agree with... your application I partially do not...

...even though there are those so far gone that they need a heavy hand every now and again... (like a child sometimes needs a spanking)... even me...

Making all these allowances... I make even more for some one or one's that I believe and feel to be on the wrong paths...

Even Catholics... who inherited mostly Greek and Roman Pantheons of Gods.. which is Poly - theism... multiple God worship which is to say they are against the first 10 commandments... from their beginning.

To condem them before God places a period on their existence is obviously error... because God will use a Harlot or a blind bum to prove His power or existence,

sometimes just to show the people that he can work with the lowest of the low... and raise them above the so-called high.

"... isn't he the carpenters' son?" - Bible from the people about Jesus.

Even Jesus while he was among us took advice and prayed to the Father...

Remember when the three wise men visited with him before he ascended the Cross? Moses was among them...

Moses.

The Egyptian raised Prophet of God...

How similar are the practices of the Developed Jewish and Christian Faiths to Egyptian Faith, in Amon - Ra', THE GOD OF LIGHT?

How is it that, in the Bible, when the Jews left the desert and traveled into Egypt for the first time, free men and women under Joseph,

and their number was fewer than 10,000?

Upon their Exodus 400 years later, they numbered in the 100's of thousands

They also Exited Egypt with a complete religon they did not have when they entered... not just the basis of one but a completed belief system that was nearly a mirror ot the Egyptians'

Which God just Destroyed?

Must not many of their new family have come from intermarrige with the former task Masters

There was no law obstructing a child of Slaves from becomming the Prince of Egypt (Moses again)

The "Slavery" then, was not like Modern Western versions or even the African Brutal Version of Slave trade...

Times change, but people rarely do... if someone makes a 100% critisism of another and 99% of it is untrue or unecessary, the critisized one should simply take the 1% and correct it... and move on without malice.

Why

Finding an error, within, is like finding really valuable treasure... hidden or buried from sight...

Most people don't get an oppurtunity to see themselves as clearly as others see them, ( I didn't say know themselves, and one does lead to the other)

If you IMPROVE, your SELF, and have a chance to get ahead...

Or God shows you a way that things can be less of a hardship, who can justify not doing it? How? By making God or the TRUTH not so

I hope in my critisim or name calling, (technically I DiD start that), by calling you rude or ignorant or both... I didn't lose sight of the educational process we are all a part of...

No one has "ARRIVED" yet... neither of us included.

Pagan Religos (no spelling error)... was often encorporated by the Roman Government to further expand their borders.

They believed it was better to take a town village or country whole and intact, (and productive) than to lay siege to it destroy it and conquer a wasteland...

It was a business descision.

So they often left many pagan practices in place to please new subjects... like Halloween... a decidely pagan practice with Druid Occult Origins.

All Saints Day is the first of November... it was incorporated to overshadow All Hallows Eve... Halloween

Why?

To refocus the population that practiced Halloween, on the Saints of the God of Abraham....

Actually that is a very benign practice... malignance is destructive...

I should have responded to you in whole or in part as I have now.. the first time...

But Women historically have a tendency to correct Male arrogance quite nicely without getting much of the credit.

Thanks for that... I expect you may or may not respond again...

With all due respect to you and your journey down the path of knowledge...

It's not about Black or any shade between the spectrum of Black and White... that would be infantile or immature of us.

It's always about the people...

In my opinion the All Seeing Eye, is either God's eyes, which would equal one 20/20 Grand Vision... One

or "an" all seeing eye.

Or

It may just be the Earth itself... which cries, is dry sometimes, contains all the eyeballs of humanity and sees in every direction through their own eyes...

and even contains the thoughts and minds of every living thing we know of... besides some micro bacteria in space...

It's as close as I can come to it... a definition... which most likely will shift and change with time...

Unless I start to delude myself into thinking I Have Arrived...

Knowlede seems endless as human stupidity... so forgive me if possible...

at the same time I AM NOT THE ONE THAT WILL BENEFIT MOST FROM YOUR FORGIVING ME...

IT IS FOR-GIVING -

OR

OF - GIVING... (INTERCHANGEBLE WORDS FOR AND OF)...

OF MEANS = DIRIVED FROM...

SOMETHING DERIVED FROM THE EXPRESSED PURPOSE OF GIVING IT AWAY ...!

You win the most when you find you are capable of forgiving another...

That took as much time to learn as to read or write it.

Now if I'm 1% correct in any of it (which I dare to say I am), then you have just recieved a short cut in life's lessons.

Which can only be beneficial if it causes no harm to you or others.

By the way I would love to see the pictures of the Popes blasphemy, I could use them here and elsewhere...

Thanks in advance

Dwayne.

PS - I am not Catholic in any shape or form, I merely felt those that are unrepresented by a narrow view should be defended.

Which is very Christian... though I may not consider myself the common definition of that either...

So beyond guessing what we are... I don't need to Believe in the truth.. for it to be true.

PSS - It is very hard to thing of anything in Creation, without considering it to be derrived in part or in whole from an action of the Creator... So all Knowlede procedes as all Creation from the Mouth of the Creator (Only with a wise purpose).

Whoever She happens to be

Well first of all to address the age thing. On this site age isnt an issue. Just because I am younger does not make me any less intelligent than you.

Secondly, your essay did not answer me at all. You did not touch apon anything I said and unfortunately I stopped reading 3/4 of the way through because I could see that you weren't answering.

Please respond to this with an answer or reply that stays on topic to what I said about the points I said.

And also I don't think you understood me about Jesus being black..

Catholics being Satanists and Jesus being black have no relievence to eachother. I don't think that catholics are satanists because they think Jesus is black because EYE also think that Jesus was black.

I will also get the pictures for you and post them in the forum

another all seeing eye