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Intellagentdesign - Page 3

User Thread
 65yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
oh ya - and no wonder we are facing Global Warming.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
You have a rather odd attitude to evolution/science okcitykid. I'll tell you the sad thing.....is that religion feebly claims fact. Science claims theory.

a. Its not a matter of whether your 'vote counts', it is a belief. 'Evolution' rejects ID because the whole scientific community recognises a productive difference. There is only a very select few that claim ID is a science. Most Christians and religous people who are scientists recognise that ID is theology, but not science. They understand that ID is not a science. To ignore this is narrow minded and simply a consequence of pure naivity.

b. Exactly. You don't care. That is the issue, because you see no problem if it is or not taught in science. It seems you see no productive difference.

c.
quote:
I believe if we took I.D. and evolution out of science and put them into a theory class, there would be less conflict, and we could go onto more important things

Are you kidding! Evolution is science buddy.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. -- Theodosius Dobzhansky.

Evolution is the cornerstone of Biology. Evolution explains the development of life on earth, by the theory of common descent, and with paleontology we can even find out how life developed, and what the world used to look like. Shared traits, features, processes, distributions and behaviours of organisms can be understood.

quote:
A belief that everything has been created by chance I believe is less logical then believing that there is intelligence behind creation

I'm sorry but are you kidding! Why do you think this? Chance is probability. Logic=probability.

d. I'm going to repeat myself for obvious reasons. What right does it have to be taught in biology classes? its not scientific, its theology. The pseudo-code algorithm for how a scientific idea develops is:

1. Consider a particular phenomenon.
2. Propose a postulate to explain that phenomena.
3. Present evidence to support the postulate.
4. Allow others the opportunity to present evidence to either support or contradict the postulate.
5. If after a reasonable amount of time and evidence the postulate still stands up strong, it may be promoted to the rank of theory.
6. If it is disproven, goto 1.
7. If, after a much longer time, the theory is very strong and essentially unchallenged, it may be promoted to the rank of law.

Most scientific ideas have followed this whole process. Based on these criteria, 'intelligent design' is not a scientific theory at all. The reason for this is that it completely sidesteps the all-important points (3) and (4).

quote:
Neither can natural selection explain how it just naturally selects

Yes it can buddy. The whole study of evolutionary biology explains and scientifically proves the process of natural selection and how it naturally selects. I am a student of evolutionary bio. I feel absolutely no need to prove you wrong, unless you want me to enlighten you in this area of concern.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 49yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that PeteSmith is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Both evolution and creationism look at the same evidence. Each interprets the data differently. The question to ask is which one fits reality best?

It is said that for 1 human enzyme to form by chance is a number with 40000 zeros. Funnily enough the number of atoms in the known universe is a number with 80 zeros. It is a mathematical improbability.

BTW. evolution is only a theory after the existence of life. What happened to create the first living organism and the universe?

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""What we do in life echoes in eternity" Maximus"
 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
It is said that for 1 human enzyme to form by chance is a number with 40000 zeros. Funnily enough the number of atoms in the known universe is a number with 80 zeros. It is a mathematical improbability.

That is not stating anything productive. There is a difference between chance and a single number. Would be interesting to read that btw.

Evolution is a theory beginning from the origin of life. There are many theories on the origins of 'our' universe, such as the big bang. That is physics and cosmology not biology. Thats a different topic of science buddy.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 65yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
'Evolution' rejects ID because the whole scientific community recognizes a productive difference


So is this your evidence?

The majority is not always right, you find this in history everywhere and I notice the word "productive". While I agree that it isn't very productive that we will ever discover that there is a God or Not, this is not evidence for or against.

quote:
It seems you see no productive difference


So what does this mean - it is easier to prove evolution then an intelligence, so intelligence should just be thrown out?

quote:
I'm sorry but are you kidding! Why do you think this? Chance is probability. Logic=probability.


intelligence=probability

quote:
its theology


theology is the teaching of scriptures and doctrines and religious beliefs. Religion believes in the moon and stars and so does science. What science teaches about the moon and stars are different than what religion teaches about the moon and stars - but the moon and stars still exist, just as the possibility of intelligence. Just like the moon and stars, it can be both science and religion - unless you don't believe in this intelligence and believe that you are right without evidence, that being pride not science.

quote:
The pseudo-code algorithm for how a scientific idea develops is:




Honestly I don't understand your pseudo-code algorithm thing and could not tell you if intelligent design falls into it or not.

But I do know that if you have determined that there is no intelligence behind design without evidence you are already flawed - science requires evidence. There is no evidence of either intelligence or natural selection - its all assumptions and all your fancy words do not change that.

quote:
Most scientific ideas have followed this whole process


What of the science that hasn't - is it null and void?

quote:
evolutionary biology explains and scientifically proves the process of natural selection


Last I heard was evolution was a theory. It might be a theory you believe, but still a theory.

quote:
The modern theory of evolution is based on the concept of natural selection. This was proposed in a joint 1858 paper by Charles Darwin and Alfred Russel Wallace, and achieved a wider readership in Darwin's 1859 book, The Origin of Species. Natural selection is the idea that individuals who possess advantageous heritable traits are more likely to survive and reproduce. In doing so, they increase the frequency of such traits in subsequent generations.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution#Natural_selection

And while I can believe in this theory, I don't see how this removes the possibility of Intelligent-Design.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Yes it is evidence considering scientists have hypothesized ID as a potential theory, yet it then fails as it falls short of any scientific analytical method. If science rejects ID because they realise it isn't scientific, then its a given. Science understands that ID is theology. Most believers of ID understand and accept that ID is theology.

Is there anything that makes you think ID has or can be proven though? It would be interesting to see if there is any logical and evidential reasoning of ID. As much as science is concerned, there is an absence of this in the theology of ID.

What makes you think ID=probability? ID is founded on illogical reasoning- ie. god as a supernatural realm, and creationism.

Theology teaches more than the 'moon and stars'.

Why don't you understand the pseudo-code algorithm for a scientific theory?

quote:
There is no evidence of either intelligence or natural selection

What makes you think there is no evidence for natural selection? When the whole basis of natural selection is founded on scientific logical and evidential reasoning.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
[  Edited by summit at   ]
 72yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that cturtle is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Reminds me of an old wives tale, I read in school.


There was this couple working on some project, & it seems they were using photographic film related to it because they had some in a desk drawer where they were studying some rock samples.
Seems they found that the film was fogged? Now, if it had been me, I would have called the supplier & vigerously advocate that they had sent some bad batch of film or had fogged the film because of improper handling. Demanding they should replace the film at their expense.
Now I don't know why but may be they decided to process all the film to see if it was all unusable and in doing so noted that there was some pattern or vague form (unfocused image) in the exposed film? I think they were called Currie or something like that but then it was just some old tale I heard.

Oh, they discovered by further examination that the rocks they were stuying seemed to emitted some kind of radiation. Turns out it was quite dangerous as their studies cause them to absorb leathal doses of that radiation, but they weren't aware of that effect . . .back then.

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"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
 65yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Summit - it would seem to me that you believe as u do because most of science believes as you.

But if you look at history it is always that one person who sees something that no one else seems to notice who leads everyone else into a new realization. As I said, it was once impossible to believe that the world was round. Though the Hindus have always believed that the world was round, I'm sure that was just assumed religion.

My whole logic behind ID is simple - it seems impossible to believe that this whole world just happened to just fall together by accident even if it takes billions of years.

If you take puzzle pieces and throw them on a table and wait a billion years you will still have puzzle pieces on a table. You won't get that puzzle until something puts it together, and we are one of the greatest puzzles on this earth. It doesn't happen by its self, plain and simple - that is my logic.

If I'm supposed to believe in evolution because most scientists say so then you should believe that to get to heaven you must be baptized because most Christian ministers say so.

I do believe you are smart and believe what you believe because you have decided to, not because everybody else does.

But if you're going to make me believe something - you're not going to make me believe anything by explaining that MOST this or that believe. That means absolutely nothing to me, I throw that right out the window. Because it was that ONE scientist who everyone laughed at who discovered something new.

That is likely the way it goes. You will find people will believe without much question the first thing they are told, it is only when someone brings up an opposing point of view that they will really question something, and that of course is that opposing point of view. So it is very difficult for us to ever learn anything new, especially when you throw pride, arrogance, narrow mindedness and prejudice into the mix. It is amazing we learn anything at all.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
My whole logic behind ID is simple - it seems impossible to believe that this whole world just happened to just fall together by accident even if it takes billions of years...If you take puzzle pieces and throw them on a table and wait a billion years you will still have puzzle pieces on a table. You won't get that puzzle until something puts it together, and we are one of the greatest puzzles on this earth. It doesn't happen by its self, plain and simple

This is not however justifying how you think ID is logical. I'll ask again, where is the logical and evidential reasoning for ID? Nowhere.
That is addressing the origins of the universe, which does not concern the central topic of evolution. That is about cosmology and astrophysics.

Well evolution is not impossible because it happened, and is happening as you read this. Evolution does not occur spontaneously! Evolution didn't happen by itself. Evolution involves changes over time in the genetic composition of populations, that is, changes in the gene pools of populations. On the very foundations of evolutionary mechanism, the Hardy-Weinberg principle shows that the natural tendency of populations is to remain at genotypic frequency equilibrium. Evolutionary change, therefore, must be due to 5 causitive factors. These factors are: random mating, mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection.

Hope that helps.

Now of course, I know that many theories are generated by innovative openminded thinkers.

Perhaps you could address the following, as I already have requested.
- What makes you think ID=probability?
- Why don't you understand the pseudo-code algorithm for a scientific theory?
- Is there anything that makes you think ID has or can be proven though?
- What makes you think there is no evidence for natural selection? Natural selection is only a component of evolution, there is of course macroevolution.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
[  Edited by summit at   ]
 65yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Maybe we have a different definition of creationism.

Why is it impossible to beleive that God created evolution?

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 47yrs • M
A CTL of 1 means that Ironwood is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Why is it impossible to beleive that God created evolution?


Influence, pride, and idiocy.

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"The Greatest Enemy of Knowledge is Not Ignorance, It is the ILLUSION of Knowledge. Stephen Hawking"
 72yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that cturtle is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Evolutionary change, therefore, must be due to 5 causitive factors.
These factors are: random mating, mutation, migration, genetic drift, and natural selection.

I guess I had it wrong all along, random mating & cell division seem rather different effects [at least to me] & I would have would have put environment at the top of the list?
May be we are discussing apples & tomatoes so to speak?
You seem to speak about evolution as changes occurring within species, while evolution of all species from simple single cells tends to be related more commonly by the term?

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"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
 38yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that summit is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
Okcitykid:
quote:
Why is it impossible to beleive that God created evolution?

Perhaps read my posts on this thread again. And this:
http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=58487-u-frmid=12


Now it would be appreciative if you could give reasoning for my questions (for the 3rd time!)

cturtle: Random mating and cell division are different processes. The environmental surroundings influence the 5 main factors. Evolution involves changes within a population of a species. A 'species' is a specific term that includes single cellular organisms right up to multicellular animals.

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"The summit is just a halfway point"
 65yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that okcitykid is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
Now it would be appreciative if you could give reasoning for my questions (for the 3rd time!)


Am I on trial here. I think I explained myself very well, obviously the answer wasn't satisfactory.

some of us feel the same way about evolution - the answer or theory just isn't satisfactory.

According to my wife - evidence of evolution of man only goes back so far and then it stops and ID picks up where it stops and trys to explain the gap in the evolution of man.

Ofcourse I wasn't speaking of man, I was speaking of all life as I believe the other posters were as well.

And I would like to add because of other comments elsewhere, ID is not the teaching of Adam and Eve.

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"A fool says I know and a wise man says I wonder."
 72yrs • M •
A CTL of 1 means that cturtle is a contributing member of Captain Cynic.
quote:
And I would like to add because of other comments elsewhere, ID is not the teaching of Adam and Eve.

I am little confused by the statement?
Doesn't the judaeo-christian traditionn state that all human beings [evolved] came from Adam & Eve?
Ah . . right on target.
quote:
Random mating and cell division are different processes.
Evolution involves changes within a population of a species.
Thank You for stating it so clearly.

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"Terrorist or tyrant, few may come to the Truth that both are poor choice."
Intellagentdesign - Page 3
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