JESUSLAND - Page 2

Sodom and Gammorah, two city's destryed because of animalt being sexually mistreated. I said sex wasn't bad, I said everything bad that has happent. Highest on the list is war, and I excplained how war's occour because of differences in ethincs. Or like hitler did, use the jewish religion as a target for discrimination. And becuse of religious difference we had WW2. You can twist and turn on it, but it was a religious war. And it just being 60 years ago prooves humans have never changed, only our civilization has developed over a long duration of time.

I'm no punk. I study, I'm anly asuming you probably have kids and work and this leaves almost no time for reading. But this is not a competition as you may see it, this is a discussion, and I would like to see you survive in a room with grown up people. Cus' your trying to make fun of me as a person, only prooves that you are not old enough, in mind, to be here. Age doesn't matter, old people rule this world, and old people never did any good work with that. Something I can say cus' I'm still young.

And even IF you may have taken anything I have said to your heart the wrong way, please excuse me. But it makes you look bad when you set Yourself in ATTACK, and still preaching ''age does matter''. Arn't you grownups supposed to ''handle'' little boy's like me in a non-hostile way?

It is well grown, mature people that turn to having sex with 3 or more people. Young ones to, but you stated by saying thte mature people have another way of looking at sex. Wich is wrong. The only thing that is different is a christian perception and a non-christian perception of sex.

Ok animated, since your second post adressed Patrish I'm going to assume your first one addressed me. First of all, I agree with you, Patrish should'nt attack you as a person, she has no right to do so, it is an act of immaturity. That being said, not attacking you either Patrish, we've all done it.

I'm sixteen. I havn't had sex, and don't intend to until marriage. I havn't ever loved a man either, as I said, I'm yet young, but it isn't as if I will never experience these things, it's just a matter of waiting for the right guy, to give myself to completely. Natural urges are a part of my life, not the main reason for it. I live to please God, and I can honestly tell you that in my heart, I have peace. I don't cage my insticts, I just don't act on them.

"Humans have made religion since we first got concious and everytime there is war, it has in someway everything to do with religion BECAUSE of differences in ETHICS caused by differend belives. "

See, I approach this differently. Humans were made by religion, they didn't make it. There are wars because it is in human nature to fight. Take this site. Time and time again, I watch the atheists argue, over relativily unimportant things. As soon as I, a Christian, joing the fray, they join forces. I don't hold this against them, it's human nature. We must fight, religion is a thing held very close to people, this is why they fight over it.

You read the entire Bible? I'm impressed. I'm indirectly quoting someone when I say, you didn't understand the Bible because you are reading someone else's mail. The Bible was written to God's people. The old testament first to Jews, the new testament to Christians, including, and in fact mainly pointed to, Christianic Jews. You go into reading it with the assumption that God doesn't exist, miracles can't happen, and the Bible is falsehood. In order to understand, just like anything, you must read with an open mind. Let me put this question to you. Have you ever thought something a contradiction, and then later figured out that in fact it made perfect sense? This is how the Bible is. You must read in prayer and read extensivily for it to make sense, but it does make sense. Had you gotten to the new testament, you would realize that the purpose for Jesus's death is to atone for the sins of the world. In other words, we don't need to live in constant fear, because Jesus took the fall for us.

Feel free to take on that complicated stuff with me any time. If I don't have an answer for you, in all likelyhood i know someone who does.

Re-animated, NEVER assume.
And I dont attack unless attacked.
Calling me old..? Ya get what ya give.

I am young m'dear. Just have more time in for alot more research.

Wars are nothing new...

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Sodom and Gammorah, two city's destryed because of animalt being sexually mistreated.

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Just where did you guess this occured?

Soddom and Gamorrah were destroyed because of blatant homosexuality. As is an offense to God.

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"Humans have made religion since we first got concious and everytime there is war, it has in someway everything to do with religion BECAUSE of differences in ETHICS caused by differend belives. "

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Religion is NOT the reason, it is lack of knowledge in one's religion that has caused wars.

Man is inherently both good and evil...ying and yang as it were.
However, for the good to occur, many believe the evil of their neighbor should be stopped...
AND in many cases, the more evil will be wiped out.

IF ALL MEN FOLLOWED A PEACEFUL RELIGION...I MEAN UTTERLY FOLLOWED, WE WOULD NOT HAVE WAR!!!
For who would war if they were inherently peaceful, and as were their neighbors??

WHO started this current situation...?

Gee, let me guess....

We as americans who have never felt the 'dictatorship' can surmise what we want, until we have become ruled by a tyrant, we cannot state how anyone in Iraq should feel about Saddam being taken down. A dictator doesnt have a senate or congress...BTW!
They kill on whim.

WE assume our own nation is the bad guy...poor Saddam. MaddASS backwards.

I am not getting into this war with ya...cos you evidently follow the same drum as the liberal persuation.

Let me guess, and I find this kinda funny.
Liberals believe there is NO God, but war is mean to a tyrannical leader...

Makes me think I am right when I believe God works in wonders.
30 years Iraq cried out for Saddam to be taken out of power...and wishing and hoping america would intervene for their freedom (BTW Freedom Fighters are those who hated Saddam, but are duped to believe America wants to take his place in occupation) Yea...ok....and when the people there get what they WANT..our nation continues to want them suppressed.

THIS IS WHAT THEY WANT!!!??

AND dont get me started about those who went underground to find out about the freedom fighters. (Turkish)

I digress...


YOU do NOT have to believe me...but dont criticise a boy who has his heart in the right place with God by ignoring the demons compelling him into homosexual desires.

Desires are easy to get past, if not obsessed over.
Prayer can and does release the soul to higher meaning...

Prayer and a relationship to God can overcome all human desires, mammon, and fornications.

Otherwise we are forced to live in a secular society where it is said...
"If it feels good, do it"

This boy, if he wins over the soul, will have a better reward in eternity for overcoming this cross, than if he is made to believe he cant and that the worldly cares are more important.

I thank you for your sympathy.

Sorry for jumping so hard on religion in this post, but I'm not planning to discuss this forever. So I'll rush hard and maby even make it too hard for people to follow what I'm saying clearly.

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I'm sixteen. I havn't had sex, and don't intend to until marriage. I havn't ever loved a man either, as I said, I'm yet young, but it isn't as if I will never experience these things, it's just a matter of waiting for the right guy, to give myself to completely. Natural urges are a part of my life, not the main reason for it. I live to please God, and I can honestly tell you that in my heart, I have peace. I don't cage my insticts, I just don't act on them.

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That you have not have sex and are waiting until marrige is Christian, and that is atleast following what the bible tells you to. That is better than screwing around using chritianity to take away your fear but not really caring about what the religion itself is about and what responsibility comes with calling oneself a ''christian''. Or just turning into a christian cus' their suddenly afraid of death.

I'm just asuming, but maby the reason you havn't fallen in love with a man is becuse you expect so much of them? People spend their whole lives looking for the right person, don't expect you will find him automaticly. Just remember what the bilbe sais, that you cannot have sex without having a baby. But if it's born dead ''God ment for it to happen''.

Going on a little broader percpective there, but yeah.

I can tell you, and I am and have got the proof from others and myself, that the only reason religious people are at peace is becuse they do not fear death. Death is the most frightening thing of all and unknown to all. Only therories claim diffrently. And it is easy to say It isn't true now that you have much more to think about, but in the end, it's what it's all about, dying, and where yo ''go''.

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See, I approach this differently. Humans were made by religion, they didn't make it. There are wars because it is in human nature to fight. Take this site. Time and time again, I watch the atheists argue, over relativily unimportant things. As soon as I, a Christian, joing the fray, they join forces. I don't hold this against them, it's human nature. We must fight, religion is a thing held very close to people, this is why they fight over it.

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To say that religion created man is like saying the earth was created before the stars (clamed by the bible) It is both unrealistic.
Before christianity, befor jewism, before the gnostic religions, long befor those; there was a people called sumarians, these are the oldest proof of human life. They wrote on tablets and had gods like all societys that have evolved through time. Jewism evolved from the gnostic and christianity from that. We have a dusin or so different religions out there now and the ego thought that ''my religion is the truth'' will ofcource create fighting and even war; and has.

Pls ignore my bad spelling.

I'm gonna take an excample of instincts now since we where talking about that mostly.

Discrimination: An outcome of our instinct of leadership. We severe the weak to control them. In younger ages this is easy to spot directly of what I just said. Discrimination of race, why did this occour? Is it only becuse of religion the southern states of america used to allow themselves to own slaves? This is human allright but is it christian? YES it is! The wierd thing is, the bible never told us not to have slaves, we have slaves in the old and the new testaments and tells os of all the good people with many slaves how richer they become. Our animal instincts are so clear to see, but if you supress them like christians tend to do, all actually, then you will have humans doing all they can within the frames of the bible. And let me tell you there's alot of confusion and holes in it.

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You read the entire Bible? I'm impressed. I'm indirectly quoting someone when I say, you didn't understand the Bible because you are reading someone else's mail. The Bible was written to God's people. The old testament first to Jews, the new testament to Christians, including, and in fact mainly pointed to, Christianic Jews. You go into reading it with the assumption that God doesn't exist, miracles can't happen, and the Bible is falsehood. In order to understand, just like anything, you must read with an open mind. Let me put this question to you. Have you ever thought something a contradiction, and then later figured out that in fact it made perfect sense? This is how the Bible is. You must read in prayer and read extensivily for it to make sense, but it does make sense. Had you gotten to the new testament, you would realize that the purpose for Jesus's death is to atone for the sins of the world. In other words, we don't need to live in constant fear, because Jesus took the fall for us.

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Going on the second time now. You say I don't understand the bible? I've studied most of it, I even tried to twist a bit on the things that seemed out of line. But the truth is, you can't keep twisting and turning it til you get wat you want, it sais everything right there, follow and you will come to heaven.
Protestants say ''The world has changed'' and use that as an excuse for their ''sinning''. if the world has changed so much the bible need's to be rewritten or need's a new testament, God will give it to us. And we need some claimed ''prophets'' to do that.

You don't need to be christian to read the bible, if you are, you are allready beliving what you know nothing about. If the bible is so convincing then why arn't everyone convinced? But why do so many start beliving in it too? Everyone knows humans are weak, even God sais so, but living in harmony, and having no fear or bad consience, isn't that for the ones of ego-nature? I belive it is, and I know all christians are irrasonell and have allways ruined society. It's not even 200 years ago since they would have burned ''witches'' or gay people down in britain especially. Why don't we learn from our mistakes and stop twisting on things. We all know the reasons christians belived in witches back then are just as good to belive them today, and many religious people do belive in ghosts or other paranormal things, cus' they, and God, are all under that same label. If you belive in the ''Good' you also belive in ''Evil'' : ''Ying/yang'' ''Good/bad'' ''God/Satan (as a fallen angel)'' this evolves in other things: Miracles -Angels - Ghosts - Myths - Witches/Wizards - and so on.
Some christians don't belive in ghosts, they go no farther then angels. But it is extremly easy to go further, and this is what all of christians have done in the past.
Today, they usually go no further than ghosts. But this is becuse they have ''learnt a lesson''.

''All life is holy'' the bible sais, therefor many christians are Pro-life. This means: If you've been raped; Keep the baby, It's your duty and fault. The worst about this is that christians want to controle other lives with this rule. Keep it within your religions people. I don't want to see another selfish christian infront of a place they do these operations ever, they can belive in whatever crap they wish, but don't let others be destroyed becuse of it. You say the baby is ''alive'' well it's not, it's living yes, but not alive. If you have never killed one ant I will respect it coming from any of you, but I bet you have killed insects of many kinds. A dead sperm is actually no more ''alive'' than an ant, much much less even. The ant's run on instincts, so does seamon, to a degree. Girls who cannot take care of a baby is forced to have baby's. Girls who have been abused are forced to have their baby's. Girls who have made a mistake are forced to have baby's. Girls who have used kondom, but it whent wrong are forced to have baby's. I mean, what is more inhumane than to take control of another persons life? Seamon don't have ''soul's'', ''soul's'' come with consciousness, and this comes from our inntelect/our brain size. When our blood stops, our brain eventually stops working after a coupple of minutes, then it is dead and starts to rot. Christians belive a ''soul'' flys away to God.

In my opinion: We cannot belive in something so imature as religion anymore, we must stand on our own feet and control our own lives. Not others must control our mind, or control our lives, like christianity and christians allways have been doing and are trying to do.
Belive me, I wish I could belive. But now that I can't I must be glad that I am what should really be called ''Independent''.

Some time ago I had a big discussion about this.
How come the bible doesn't say when to have christmas? Why the 24 (25th USA)? Because in rome it was the biggest festival at that day, the christians search to convert it to their own. This is a fact of science, but wich most christians deny.

And there is no proof in egypt of any slaves leaving any time, there has been found proof for slaves but not any leaving the egyptians.
As there has been found no evidence for Jesus. Sure there was a man 2000 years ago that may have created christianity, but that doesn't mean it is true.

A long post that one, you must have been bored following me this long =)
Sorry if it tends to look like I'm attacking some of you verbally. I can understand you are in defence position.

I say, fuck religion.... If there is a God he didn't make us so we could sit here discussing homosexuality... go out and have fun... please. I believe In God, outright, but not in the Bible, not one bit. It was written by Church leaders, people, humans, imperfect... probably sinners. Get a grip, use the lessons, don't get caught up in the bullsh*t.

xx Cv

Ok Animated, that was a long post. I'll try to answer as much of it as I can, if I forget something I'm sorry.

"I'm just asuming, but maby the reason you havn't fallen in love with a man is becuse you expect so much of them? People spend their whole lives looking for the right person, don't expect you will find him automaticly. Just remember what the bilbe sais, that you cannot have sex without having a baby. But if it's born dead ''God ment for it to happen''. "

Thanks for the advice. I think that the reason I havn't fallen in love with a man is because I'm sixteen and that would be illegal. Point being, I don't get along with most people my own age because I don't care about what they care about. Once I'm old enough to meet a guy of my own intellectual and maturity level I'll be far more likely to fall in love. I'm not going to adress the whole birth control issue, becasue I admit I don't know.

"To say that religion created man is like saying the earth was created before the stars (clamed by the bible) It is both unrealistic."

Why?

"Before christianity, befor jewism, before the gnostic religions, long befor those; there was a people called sumarians, these are the oldest proof of human life. They wrote on tablets and had gods like all societys that have evolved through time. Jewism evolved from the gnostic and christianity from that. We have a dusin or so different religions out there now and the ego thought that ''my religion is the truth'' will ofcource create fighting and even war; and has. "

I advise you to read a book called "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell. It's a hard read, really a collection of notes by a man who set out to prove Christianity wrong and in fact found much proof supporting it instead. Part of it is illustrating how the Israelites were extremely different from any other religion. They defy the scientific theory of religious evolution. While the rest of the religions followed a certain pattern, starting with the worship of things, then evolving to the worship of multiple gods, and so on, the Israelites followed a single God throughout their exsistence, and even to today.


"Discrimination: An outcome of our instinct of leadership. We severe the weak to control them. In younger ages this is easy to spot directly of what I just said. Discrimination of race, why did this occour? Is it only becuse of religion the southern states of america used to allow themselves to own slaves? This is human allright but is it christian? YES it is! The wierd thing is, the bible never told us not to have slaves, we have slaves in the old and the new testaments and tells os of all the good people with many slaves how richer they become."

This is a difficult subject. I looked and could'nt find the Bible verse I wanted. It speaks of a Christian slave who runs away from his master and one of the apostles rebukes the Christian master of this slave for enslaving his brother in Christ. A Christian is told to love his neighbor, to act as a servant to all, for this is what Christ did. Slavery was such a long standing tradition of the times that it would have been impossible to banish it, but Christians were expected to obey Jesus, and slavery was a direct contradiction to His teachings. This is why American Christians who kept slaves tried to say that blacks were'nt really human. They were disobeying the Bible and comitting a great sin toward humanity and it still makes my blood boil to think of people doing this in the name of Christ.

"Our animal instincts are so clear to see, but if you supress them like christians tend to do, all actually, then you will have humans doing all they can within the frames of the bible. And let me tell you there's alot of confusion and holes in it. "

Let me speak here from personal experience. I don't obey the Bible because I'm afraid if I don't I'll go to hell. It annoys me when pastors put such influence on the whole eternal torture thing, because they leave out the true wonder of Christ. I obey the Bible, to the best of my ability, because it brings me great joy to do so. I don't barely survive while smashing down my instincts. I thrive while controlling myself.

"Going on the second time now. You say I don't understand the bible? I've studied most of it, I even tried to twist a bit on the things that seemed out of line. But the truth is, you can't keep twisting and turning it til you get wat you want, it sais everything right there, follow and you will come to heaven."

Ok, let's see how I can phrase this so as to not seem to offend you. No one can study the Bible until we make perfect sense of it. It's not possible. What did you think was out of line? Sometimes people can't accept what they read because there are preconcieved ideas about subjects or they arn't willing to give things up. It's a matter of what you are willing to sacrifice of yourself, for God. If you say it doesn't make perfect sense, I put it to you, does atheism make perfect sense? Arn't there things an atheist can't explain?

"I know all christians are irrasonell and have allways ruined society"

Wow. I don't think I'm irrational. In fact, I think you're irrational. You see the point? You are assuming, in such a statement, that you know everything. I'm not attacking you, though after being called an irrational society ruiner I'm tempted to. Keep an open mind. You, like me, are yet young, and we both have a lot to learn before we make such assured statements.


"Girls who cannot take care of a baby is forced to have baby's. Girls who have been abused are forced to have their baby's. Girls who have made a mistake are forced to have baby's. Girls who have used kondom, but it whent wrong are forced to have baby's. I mean, what is more inhumane than to take control of another persons life?"

*Sigh*. Thing is, you have a point Animated. I've been tetering on the pro-life, pro-choice thing for a while now. See, I go to a small Christian school, where Bush is a prophet and Kerry is the antiChrist, and abortion is the tool of the devil. I disagree with all the above views, and find them close-minded at the least, and fanatical at the worst. I don't think Christian views should be forced on anyone, but the question comes with the baby. Should'nt it be allowed to make it's own choice? You can say that it isn't alive, that it does'nt think. This seems to be the popular view. But I just don't know how you can say that without any doubt. How do you know, really, how do you know?

"How come the bible doesn't say when to have christmas? Why the 24 (25th USA)? Because in rome it was the biggest festival at that day, the christians search to convert it to their own. This is a fact of science, but wich most christians deny. "

This at least I have some answer to. It does'nt really matter. A holiay is a holiday, who cares when it is? The purpose of Christmas, to a Christian, is to be reminded of their savior's birth. It doesn't matter when this occurs. Maybe you're right, I don't know about the purpose behind the date, but I again put the question to you, what does it matter?

The proof of Jesus's life and death is there. Science does not deny that he exsisted. Many trusted documents aside from the Bible speak of him.

Slavery is a form of payment, or employment to the 'owner' whom is owed a debt, or a slave may enslave themselves in order to have adaquate food and a place to reside.

To become enslaved was many times from a debt payment. A family could enslave their child or themselves to pay a debt.

Of course we know those times are archiac, however, even today there is still slavery for the same reasons. SO today, the laws apply still to the way 'these' slaves must be treated. For Christ knew even what we would have in our times.
AND altho WE live in a society where slavery is non existent doesnt mean third world countries have abolished slavery. And, we still have 'employees'.

Those working under a boss, who must comply in order to 'obtain life's necessities.'

INCIDENTLY.... laws set up today especially in America are Christian based and judiac based. (Ten Commandments)
'Tolerance.
Stealing, murder, adultery...etc are all against the law.
RELIGION has indeed set the precedence of the societal laws...
Otherwise we all be like the cannibals, without any order.


Regardless of the oldest 'religious' ceremonial findings, does not mean it ever was the oldest...JUST oldest found. The book of Genesis describes times from the beginning and hence the Old Testament to where Christ came.

After the flood, ppl grew once again, and scattered over the globe.
China, Africa, Middle east, etc...were all covered with different 'tribes' and cultures. Many, as is normally true, turned away from the original 'memory' of God...and in the loss, created their own gods, goddesses.

Just because they did this did not make it the true faith...Just the most 'needy' for who the true God was.



Abortion is ALL about rights....eh?
Well, it is not in fact a true right.
For to have rights means to become above 'oppresors'...if there is only one entity that is being oppressed, then we are usurping their right to life.

Therefore it is a selfish practice...and that leads to sex outside of marriage.


...which I will now explain why it is 'more than just christian'.

Ever wonder why Christians are taught so much in the way of love..it is love that MUST be conveyed to all of God's creatures.
As a christian we must abstain from sex b4 marriage because to have sex b4 marriage is without love.

Carnal desires lead to nothing but 'pain' for someone.
Youth who partake in extra marital sex, are USING one another. Consentious ...? Hmmm. Not unless both are committed, and without taking vows before God that YOU PROMISE this is love and nothing less, you are just using one another.
One night stands are nothing more than using one another or one being used.

Love cannot come from these practices. Lust is another story as it is pure animal instinct to 'fulfil' oneself and nothing further need to done to 'love' one another or try to make a promise of this love.

This is against the laws of love, therefore God made it improper.

He Whom has all knowledge (GOD) knows the pain of this world..and thus He in His Omnipotent essense decreed sex to be 'within the bounds of love, by vows and marriage'

A way to head off trouble, so to speak.

IT also means, if man would listen to God, we would NOT have to debate abortions, if everyone waited, and the marriage was a happy union and the love was complete...it becomes natural to desire children.

(Venture to say more marriages would be happier without memory of another, or the felt need to compete with a former lover)

Otherwise, to have sex outside a marriage, we see multiple partners, abortions aka (Killing an innocent life), diseases from multiple partnering, suicide when things wont work, extreme depression from 'rejection' due to being unable to be intimate emotionally, and a host of other problems.

LOVE is the prime call for ppl for a reason, for to Love God 1st, you are able to love yourself, if you are able to love yourself, you are able to love others....if you love others, we would NOT hurt one another.

This has suddenly evolved into a huge discussion and will probably take weeks probably before anyone come's too anything close to agreeing. I've got little time to answer much now, but I'll comment on the rest tomorrow or on saturday.

''Thanks for the advice. I think that the reason I havn't fallen in love with a man is because I'm sixteen and that would be illegal. Point being, I don't get along with most people my own age because I don't care about what they care about. Once I'm old enough to meet a guy of my own intellectual and maturity level I'll be far more likely to fall in love. I'm not going to adress the whole birth control issue, becasue I admit I don't know''.

It has nothing with age to do, and it isn't ilegal to be in love. You knwo your not comitted to have to marry the first boy that you love, and you certanly don't have to have sex with him nontheless.

When I said ''To say that religion created man is like saying the earth was created before the stars (clamed by the bible) It is both unrealistic'', you asked me why.
Why do you ask why when it's so obvious. They's about to find life on jupiters moon now, 14-15th of january i belive, and I know if they do find life, the pope or whatever will claim it is a ''experiment gone wrong'' by God. There are signs of there being life on mars long ago too. The thing that is needed to create life is not God, only methan gas. It creates an atmosphere and are a must for life. If God is a omnicient fart of methan of if God let go of a big one at earth, christians will maby discuss further. I will not.

''I advise you to read a book called "Evidence that demands a verdict" by Josh McDowell. It's a hard read, really a collection of notes by a man who set out to prove Christianity wrong and in fact found much proof supporting it instead. Part of it is illustrating how the Israelites were extremely different from any other religion. They defy the scientific theory of religious evolution. While the rest of the religions followed a certain pattern, starting with the worship of things, then evolving to the worship of multiple gods, and so on, the Israelites followed a single God throughout their exsistence, and even to today. ''

maby I will read the book. But it will be some time before i do, reading the bible now, and have a lot of other books to catch up on too. People chose different things to worship, so did the isrealites. They are no different, they just had a ''safer'' religion.

''This is a difficult subject. I looked and could'nt find the Bible verse I wanted. It speaks of a Christian slave who runs away from his master and one of the apostles rebukes the Christian master of this slave for enslaving his brother in Christ. A Christian is told to love his neighbor, to act as a servant to all, for this is what Christ did. Slavery was such a long standing tradition of the times that it would have been impossible to banish it, but Christians were expected to obey Jesus, and slavery was a direct contradiction to His teachings. This is why American Christians who kept slaves tried to say that blacks were'nt really human. They were disobeying the Bible and comitting a great sin toward humanity and it still makes my blood boil to think of people doing this in the name of Christ.''

It's a contradiction of what the bible allows allright
About this colord thing, don't you see it as sin to disobey your God? Don't you just wanna ''convert'' them. Well they belive in their God/Gods as full hearedly as you do in your. There is no difference to the reasons why they belive. Christians can say all they want about not fearing death as a reason for religion, but I'd like to see you in my position and watch you handle it without fear. Wy do you think it sais ''belive in me and be forever''. In my opinion,
it's a paradise for the weak.


My acctual point in this is, I know am right, you belive in God. It's a long way between. And I think whatever every christian in the world say or do, we must let go of all religion and make peace with eachother as equal humans, religion equals conflict and war, it allways have. There is no excuse, the belive in God and the thing that follow sure takes away all fear but to to accept all the negative, (war, murder so on)
just to remove your own fear for the unanswered and unknown to feel safe, remove all what comes with being alive; is a selfish egosentric act for those who cannot accept their own natural fear. As we see animals fear death big time, so should we, but some religions even support martyrism and that is so damn sad to think about. Wasted time, wasted life.

I watched this debate program on tv, there was a priest or something answering questions given by the people. One asked: ''what if you realise as you die that there is no God and no heaven or hell, why throw away your life on this?''
He answerd somthing like this: ''Well then it's to late. But why take the chanse on there not being a God? What if there is a God? And I will come to heaven, but you will never? I wouldn't even dare to take bets on that!''

Isn't his fear obvious? Though it made me think a litte when he said, what if there is a God? But ofcorse there is nothing of a sort when almost everything is logical and so obvoisly realistic. The univers can be exsplained through something called fractals. It's the facts about etirnety and all that is forever on-going. Like space. Atleast to what we know, for all I know whe could be part of an atom, i a material. The galaxcies work this way, and resembles musch in the way it works and looks. But that is just a theorie, but I have no problem with accepting what does not affect me personaly.

''Let me speak here from personal experience. I don't obey the Bible because I'm afraid if I don't I'll go to hell. It annoys me when pastors put such influence on the whole eternal torture thing, because they leave out the true wonder of Christ. I obey the Bible, to the best of my ability, because it brings me great joy to do so. I don't barely survive while smashing down my instincts. I thrive while controlling myself. ''

It's the only reason people stay christian, if there was no threats there would be no need for it.
You only feel joy becuse being human is something that the bible has poisoned. It is wrong to be human. When your goals are to withstand natural urges, this will give you satisfaction when you do, ofcourse. But this is only a delusion, made to prevent you from living, but rather make you a cyborg; harshly speaking.

I controle my uges too but I don't deny them. If I get ''excited'' I damn well know it, and I don't try to tare it off and let it ruin my day when I have no girl that want's me right there and then. I don't let the fear of ''sinning'' get in my way of masturbating to go on and ruin my day. When I get it, or want it I do it. It doesn't hurt anybody at all, though someone mean I ''hurt myself'' by doing so.
I belive there is something holding us back from realising how the truth really is, In a christian newpaper I read at school scientist claimed that why people ''must'' have religions has something to do with their DNA, a so called ''weakness'' in our minds.

''Ok, let's see how I can phrase this so as to not seem to offend you. No one can study the Bible until we make perfect sense of it. It's not possible. What did you think was out of line? Sometimes people can't accept what they read because there are preconcieved ideas about subjects or they arn't willing to give things up. It's a matter of what you are willing to sacrifice of yourself, for God. If you say it doesn't make perfect sense, I put it to you, does atheism make perfect sense? Arn't there things an atheist can't explain?''
Nobody will make perfect sense of the bible as those who claim to do so have probably used a lot of ink to cover up the things that not make really sense at all. And if it does they have in some way twisted the words all around. Like Patrish have done about slavery. It's not like that at all, and I'd like to
hear that from the all christians in the world, cus' there are few who agree. Atleast catholics. They are all brainwashed homophobic hate machines controled by a book that ''fell from the sky''.
I'm a atheust, and everything I belive makes perfect scense, if I don't know the answers to what is the universe is or what death is, I don't bring my own ego to control me and through religion judge other ppl through what the bible sais.

When patrish have come up with many of these explinations she has read the bible with critic. And that is good, I did that once before, and that's how I realised that I'm more humane than this.

''Wow. I don't think I'm irrational. In fact, I think you're irrational. You see the point? You are assuming, in such a statement, that you know everything. I'm not attacking you, though after being called an irrational society ruiner I'm tempted to. Keep an open mind. You, like me, are yet young, and we both have a lot to learn before we make such assured statements.''

I didn't assume, I said I know. I didn't call you a ruiner, then I wouldn't sitting here writing to you without going completly nuts. This is a discussion not a fight. I have spoken about having an open mind, I allways have had an open mind about the bible and christian belifes, I have used alot of years trying to understand why we need it, and as I grew older, I realised it. I've even read of ppl my age listening to Metallica and getting suddenly afraid of death, but then turned into a christian, and become happy. Ofcourse, he's not ''saved'' he's answerd on his fears, and this is something everyone non-christian want's.

''*Sigh*. Thing is, you have a point Animated. I've been tetering on the pro-life, pro-choice thing for a while now. See, I go to a small Christian school, where Bush is a prophet and Kerry is the antiChrist, and abortion is the tool of the devil. I disagree with all the above views, and find them close-minded at the least, and fanatical at the worst. I don't think Christian views should be forced on anyone, but the question comes with the baby. Should'nt it be allowed to make it's own choice? You can say that it isn't alive, that it does'nt think. This seems to be the popular view. But I just don't know how you can say that without any doubt. How do you know, really, how do you know? ''

It's good your not a sheep for the wrong things. I am pro choise becuse I belive life has no value, it cannot be mesured in value, it is only what we our self belive it is, and everyperson do live, and we must therefore respekt life. But when life has not yet reached what it can be called actual ''life'' I belive seamon can be wasted as much as we'd like. It's about ego yes, but as a living human, I am my own leader and redemeer, and need's no rules as I make my own and know they work in all ways of life. I don't kill insects by sure, I kill seamon, like priests don't go off in their sleep like everybody who doesn't masturbate. A friend of mine who was christian until a year ago, had great infections on his groin, and his doctor - who is adept in their work much more that the bible could ever be - said it was becuse he never masturbated. It physicly hurt him. Now that is a typical form of denial of sexuality.

Seamon has no soul, do you remember your ''jurney''? No? That's because you whern't alive, and you hadn't any intelect like any of us, this comes with brain cappasity as we gain conciounsness as children. We may have ''souls'' (ability to live and control consiounsnessly) before we are born, like dogs have grown, but becuse we have no developt brain (intelect) we cannot remember things in long terms AT ALL.
But abortion is just up to 8-12 weeks maximum and by then life has not yet occourd. A baby might live in that stadium but it's not ''alive''.

''This at least I have some answer to. It does'nt really matter. A holiay is a holiday, who cares when it is? The purpose of Christmas, to a Christian, is to be reminded of their savior's birth. It doesn't matter when this occurs. Maybe you're right, I don't know about the purpose behind the date, but I again put the question to you, what does it matter?

The proof of Jesus's life and death is there. Science does not deny that he exsisted. Many trusted documents aside from the Bible speak of him.''

It does matter, the day was specially planned for this day, as I said before, and the reasons don't change.

Science have never had proof of jesus's excistance, you can't find proof of one mans life, and atleast not a man like jesus. He only has the bible.
What ''many trusted documents aside from the Bible'' speak of
is Messiah, not jesus. Mohammed was a messiah, and almost all religions have their messiah. That some claim it's all from the same tree is false on the messiah, jew's didn't get jesus before year 2000. And still there are jews. There have been many messiah's tin different religions, at different places in the world, and different times.

I accept all people that doesn't hurt to do bad things to others.

About the gay issue I say: ''What nature makes - nature is''
About the bible issue I say: ''The bible is a threat to life itself''

Thank you for reading. =)

re-animated, i think ur on the right track. One of the things that I found inconsistent with Christianity (primarily) at first was the remarkable way in which it seemed to celebrate many pagan festivals. It hijacked both Christmas (winter solstice) and Eastercelebrations (from the pagan goddess Eastre i think). You should really read some books on who wrote the bible, you'd be astonished. Also, you should come to Britain, you're legal here lol (no im not perving, u just said u weren't in one of ur posts)

xx Vc

''Slavery is a form of payment, or employment to the 'owner' whom is owed a debt, or a slave may enslave themselves in order to have adaquate food and a place to reside.

To become enslaved was many times from a debt payment. A family could enslave their child or themselves to pay a debt. ''

The slaves never owed their owner anything, though maby from the owners view. Slaves that enslave themselves are called servants. But enslavement, is wrong.
It's all about human rights; Every human should get a home to live in, if the reason one is on the streets are poverty and cannot be blamed on oneself. The only reason poverty excists is becuse of humans ego. The catholic church is the richest establishment in the world, give your money to the poor and there will be no more poverty in many many countrys over the world.

''Of course we know those times are archiac, however, even today there is still slavery for the same reasons. SO today, the laws apply still to the way 'these' slaves must be treated. For Christ knew even what we would have in our times.
AND altho WE live in a society where slavery is non existent doesnt mean third world countries have abolished slavery. And, we still have 'employees'. ''

You now call it old thing, but it was actually just the christian way, and that's why you try to defend it. While you know it is completly inhumane to make people as slaves.
Slave is not another word for employee. It's the left and right side of the same thing.

''INCIDENTLY.... laws set up today especially in America are Christian based and judiac based. (Ten Commandments)
'Tolerance.
Stealing, murder, adultery...etc are all against the law.
RELIGION has indeed set the precedence of the societal laws...
Otherwise we all be like the cannibals, without any order.''

How come allways christians say that things that are obvious is ''christian based''? We do not need religion anymore, we will evolve faster without it, it's staling our evolution. The law is not christain based, it's based on humanity, what is good IS good, nomatter if it sais so in the bible.It's called commen sense.

We have come to the days where we need to develop our ways of survival, if people arn't going to keep doing stimcell research becuse of christians, it prooves my point, though that was only one example. Christians - Back off the world and our weaknesses.

People call themselves christians, often this is only a dilution, cus' they don't know what the bible is all about. Christainity is mostly used to supress the fear of death now-days. But I say, we don't need to be afraid, we need to stay focused when we can. We all die, and it's the same for everyone.

The laws here in norway were in the eary 18-hundreds made by, what now is called, nazi's or facism. But alot have changed through the years. The supressing of the jew's where the christians fault, nomatter how ''wrong'' you belive nazisme is.

Sry for not answering the rest now. I will tomorrow. I've got alot to do tonight. Good night everyone.

OK: to start off with: CHristmas and Easter may fall on the same days as pagan holidays but to say that they were ripped off is to be ignorant of the Bible. Namely: December 25: Jesus' birthday and Easter: the day He rose from the dead. Secondly, anyone who believes that a person is a Christian merely because of a claim of being Christian is also ignorant of the Bible. Not every person who claims to be Christian is truly a follower of Christ. Religion is not illogical, it is merely another view of the world. it cannot be proven or disproven and thus the debate will never have an end. but neither side can claim victory until after death.

I think the original poster brings up a good point, I do however wish we wouldn't infer that this is any part of Jesus - Christian, yes. In Iran under Islam, homosexuals are hung.

I told the story else where in this forum about how I tried to cut my hand off when I was that age after reading the bible. Its very scary believing in a God who created something, called it sin and then condemned it forever to torture. It is unimaginal how anyone could believe such a thing and I should be ashamed that I ever did and should never talk about it less someone should laugh at me. But its when we don't talk about things that things like this become horrible monsters to some people who will hurt themselves or others because of it. So to the original poster - thanks.

Concerning homosexuals, Paul (not) Jesus preached against it. Did Paul really preach those things or were they made up? Was Paul really an apostle of Jesus or maybe not? or was the world so much different back then that today we would not recognize it or the people who roamed it and should not carry their morals into today (very possible).

Today there will be homosexuals, this is perfectly natural. Whenever a species overpopulates, nature then intercedes to control the population and this is simply one of natures population controls. I suspect we will see more of this, and it's perfectly natural, but back in the days of Paul, it may not have been, I for one wasn't there that I know of, but today I don't believe Jesus would condemn a homosexual but treat such as an equal who having an understanding of nature.