Hands up if you're a Christian - Page 3

it is only cut and dry when you have accepted jesus christ in your heart, therby turning your back on an infinite number of other possibilities/explanations.

No the logic behind it is cut and dry. Im not asking you to believe it but to argue sophism against it when it is so cut and dry is unproductive.

Uh oh Leftwood - you booboo'd big time.

Are you familiar with the history of Socrates and his fight against the sophists? They basically argued that: man knows nothing for certain.

Socrates said if that statment is true then there is at least one thing we can know for certain. If it is not true then we can know absolute truths. Either way you are up sh'ite creek.

Truth is one of our greatest virtues and we certainly can know it!

Truth is relative like everything else, truth often becomes false as new information acrues from the grey area whether we look for it or not.

By your earlier post of black and white thinking, you must think you know everything because you cannot just know some things, you either know everything or nothing, there is no grey area.

Now you claim another definition of sophism to worm your away into believing yourself.

Besides, Socrates would be contradicting his own most famous quote in the argument you pose, "Wisest is she who knows she does not know."

So you point only adds to my own. And again further discredits your assertions.

My philosophy is that contradictions exist in a contradictory manner, all things are both right and wrong while both existing and not. It both makes sense and doesn't.

You are desperate in your need for control, and arrogant in your belief in your own words.

Luckily for you, your attitude leads to productivity in a society of not having to care about much as long as you do much, and allowing consequence of your actions to bare little weight on your mind.

Like Bush you act often holier than thou and are not prone to admitting mistakes though you make many. You see no purpose in admitting wrongs, and instead act delusional.

But again, luckily your attitude benefits you, and you alone. Which in my opinion is a problem with our society.

What political and governmental and economic structure do you believe Jesus would endorse?

LMAO

"Truth is relative like everything else,"

Is that a statement of truth? Is that an absolute or a relative statement? Is truth absolutely relative? If it is an absolutely true statement than you just proved yourself wrong.
Don't you get it?

" truth often becomes false as new information acrues from the grey area whether we look for it or not."

Truth can not become false. A hypothesis or theory can but a truth can not.

"By your earlier post of black and white thinking, you must think you know everything because you cannot just know some things, you either know everything or nothing, there is no grey area."

Don't assume - its not helping your argument. Of course I am ignorant of many, many, MANY things. If you read me often you would have read where I told DT that I was ignorant about many aspects of the Spanish American War.

"Now you claim another definition of sophism to worm your away into believing yourself."

Now you are making a false accusation and then basing an argument upon that false accusation. That is a prime example of sophistic reasoning.

"Besides, Socrates would be contradicting his own most famous quote in the argument you pose, "Wisest is she who knows she does not know."

No contradiction - just because he considers wisdom to be the acknowledgment of ignorance does not mean that he must also deny the reality of truth.

"all things are both right and wrong while both existing and not. It both makes sense and doesn't. "

Ummm no - it makes no sense. If your philosophy is right then according to you it must also be wrong. WOW, lol. However Im glad I know this now about your philosophy for it explains a lot.

"You are desperate in your need for control, and arrogant in your belief in your own words."

LMAO* OK if you say so. However, I surely am not forcing you or anyone to read my words. Who's sounding desperate?

"Like Bush you act often holier than thou and are not prone to admitting mistakes though you make many. You see no purpose in admitting wrongs, and instead act delusional."

Man you know me soooooooo well. lol Believe about me whatever you are desperate to assume. I wont lose any sleep tonight.

"What political and governmental and economic structure do you believe Jesus would endorse?"

Monarchy with Himself on the throne! And I endorse it as well.

IM a christian and i dont care who hates me our my lord and saviour jesus christ.

"Is that a statement of truth? Is that an absolute or a relative statement? Is truth absolutely relative? If it is an absolutely true statement than you just proved yourself wrong.
Don't you get it?"

Yes, do you? See how you can even laugh at that, yet I know it apply's to me, you are understanding it but think it does not apply to you, right?

"Truth can not become false. A hypothesis or theory can but a truth can not."

Truth is percieved like all things through imperfect tools, our senses and minds. And what is percieved as truth is easily percieved false, as for its factuality, this is where no knowledge held by man can make the assured claim of truth.

And based on my philosophy which you've given credit to, things are both true and false simultaneously anyway.

"Don't assume - its not helping your argument. Of course I am ignorant of many, many, MANY things. If you read me often you would have read where I told DT that I was ignorant about many aspects of the Spanish American War."

Tsk tsk tsk, you don't even argue in context, my "assumption" is your claim by your logic of black and white with no grey area. That is what would have to be, not what I assume. But apparently you don't even understand your own claims and designs of logic.

"Ummm no - it makes no sense. If your philosophy is right then according to you it must also be wrong. WOW, lol. However Im glad I know this now about your philosophy for it explains a lot. "

If it makes no sense to you then you don't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. The point is that contradictions appear to exist in ways they should not by normal logic. Yes, according to me it must also be wrong, I have stated this and thanks for repeating it, for whatever purpose it may have served.

"Monarchy with Himself on the throne! And I endorse it as well."

Are you being serious or joking?

No, I do not know you, I simply make observations. As you do.

"Yes, do you? See how you can even laugh at that, yet I know it apply's to me, you are understanding it but think it does not apply to you, right?"

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Do you or do you not get what Socrates was saying? If you say 'there is no truth' then one reasonably wonders if you believe that to be true and if you do you have just contradicted your belief.

"Truth is percieved like all things through imperfect tools, our senses and minds. And what is percieved as truth is easily percieved false, as for its factuality, this is where no knowledge held by man can make the assured claim of truth. "

Yes perceptions can be false but you said truth not perception.

"Tsk tsk tsk, you don't even argue in context, my "assumption" is your claim by your logic of black and white with no grey area. That is what would have to be, not what I assume. But apparently you don't even understand your own claims and designs of logic."

Talk about changing the subject. Lets try sticking to the issue being discussed...

"doesn't mean it doesn't make sense"

Yes it does - a belief you hold can not be both simultaneously right and wrong.

"Are you being serious or joking? "

You really have to ask? Of course Im being serious.

Why are you so defensive about being a sophist?

(Warning: This post contains nearly asleep organization, read at own risk)

"I have no idea what you are trying to say. Do you or do you not get what Socrates was saying? If you say 'there is no truth' then one reasonably wonders if you believe that to be true and if you do you have just contradicted your belief. "

Sorry, I was arguing socrates point reafirming my own . Because I see what he is saying that truth exists whether man is knowledgable of it or not, however my point.....

"Yes it does - a belief you hold can not be both simultaneously right and wrong."

..... is that you are wrong (and also right by my logic) about this, firstly because belief is perspective not truth, and this is what I was talking about when you thought I was referring to socrates and then changing subjects.

See, to understand this better we must know what truth is. You will find that all "truth" as determined by man is perspective and relative, other truth is irrelevant to that point, because we don't even know of it and cannot speak of it or believe in it as anything other than information we do not posess.

I know this can be highly confusing and that is the importance of understanding the grey area, they are all the same thing, its like the basis of my philosophy, black and white exist simultaneously, in the grey, grey is the mixture of black and white, the illusion is that black and white exist independantly, nothing in existance as far as I can tell is independant of the rest of existance, that is why it is all in the grey area.

Physics helps to explain this, even many religious theories. The fact that grey does not exist to you excludes you from the know of not knowing, and the sort of understanding of contradictingly knowing you know something even though that something is that you don't know anything or do know everything or contradictingly know everything and nothing at the same time.

Now, once my head stops spinning, I'll say that of course you can go through life and act, think or even believe you know everything or enough to know that things are fairly black and white, and can operate with this, actually even more efficiently than others, albiet in a very sheepish fashion. But like you mention with socrates point, there is still going to be information, truth, reality, beyond your knowing.

Which you don't deny, which is a start.

"Why are you so defensive about being a sophist?"

Now, explain to me why I'm a sophist and you are not? By my dictionary you claim my information to be fallacious, which would indicate, if you are saying you are not a sophist, that you believe yours is not.

First, having not even seen my information past my general summaries that you so consistently gripe about, as well as only having seen who knows how much of the actual technical data, let alone physical realities backing your history books and alligned sources of rhetoric, how can you even claim one way or the other, or have you never thought to question your sources as you do others?

Its one thing to know you are bias and hypocritical, its another to act like or think it doesn't affect the accuracy of your beliefs or the knowledge and information you choose to endorse.

I don't Hate christianity, or any other religion in the world...yet I'm not an atheist....I feel sorry for those in a relgion tho.

If you don't believe in God, it's easier for you to understand the reality and ultimate truth of life, which is only one truth no matter how you look at it. And no the truth cannot be made false, but A truth can.....

If I say that this is a long conversation then that's a truth...but you can say that this conversation is short and just started..therefore that truth just turned false.... But the ultimate truth is that there's a conversation!

Christians believe that God is looking down on them through his divine eyes....I'm telling you guys that God is down on your level looking through your eyes and is showing you everymorning you wake up, what the truth is....

Religions believe that 'praying' using the medium of a precursor will get them to that ultimate understanding, when it poses more questions. Stop praying through, buddha, Christ, muhammed, or any other medium and try just looking at the world through literall eyes and just say thank you! That's all you can say, you can't ask for anything because you already created all that you wanted. You created your lust for pain, your lust for knowledge, why ask God to help you out of that?

God is Symbolically a parent to the children of this universe and a parent who knows how to teach a child will let the child learn for his/herself. You got yourself in it, get yourself out!.......Stop looking for a way out and accept that you're in THIS confusing situation....And stop changing religions because changing your point of view will not gain you enlightenment....You have no power to change, the only power you have is to choose to stop or Go...Stop saying you believe in God and stop saying you don't Believe in God, just accept that something exists and when the information comes you'll know.....

If a sheep is lost, it can't search for the shepherd, it doesn't know where the shepherd is, It can hope that the shepherd exists, or it can say the shehpherd doesn't exist...If it just accepts the fact that it's lost and doesn't move then it'll be easier for the shepherd to find it right?...Same with religion, stop believing in what people tell you, and stop denying everything that people tell you...just listen and don't comment.

actually I"m out of this convo......I really want y'all to see and understand That God is right infront of your face whether you believe in the creator or not....God is right infront of your face, before your nose, before your eyes and before your mind.....I still love you guys tho...you'll catch it or you won't... Search for it yourself.......Blessings

"You will find that all "truth" as determined by man is perspective and relative"

Is that a statement of truth or is it just your perception?

If it is a statement of truth then we will not find that all truth is perspective and relative.

If it is a fallacy then some truths are absolute.

See some truths are not dependent upon perception but are easily determined as absolute.

When you respond will you do so in English? Is that an absolute truth is it just my perception that I am reading you in English?

^^see you still have a perception of truth not an absolution!

My answer in english is a perception....my answer in symbols is another perception....what's the absolute truth?

I answered!

So what i've said you can percieve all you want you can subtract and take whatever you want.......but I assure you, when you realize the absolute truth which is simplicity you will understand!

The absolute truth is you responded in English. And it was a truth I could absolutely perceive as well.

truths, perceptions, semantics... this can all be argued until the sun sets a final time.

when you accept something completely, you will automatically deny yourself of other options. its pretty simple i think.

if you are a christian, this really shouldnt bother you because you already know you are right. and yet it seems to bother them still. especially when a person comes along and reminds them that their are other ideas out there.

"My answer in english is a perception....my answer in symbols is another perception....what's the absolute truth?

I answered!"

WIth both of your points like this you did the same thing, beyond Wyotes point of semantics you provide an answer to a question that wasn't even being asked and consider it an absolute truth, which is apparently is what you consider an answer to be, basically you changed the subject and called it the answer to a different question.

Past that, Wyote makes another excellent point about options and reactions to them.

When it comes to absolute truth we cannot (without room for serious just as substantial argument) base this idea or concept on anything known in our physical world, definitely not in the world of our minds.

The reason for this is being that for religious people the only absolute truth is God, god made the universe which is not a constant, though it may appear to last a while, and absolute truth is based on a constant and unchangable fact.

But a problem still arises, no man truly knows past claims of belief of what or who god is or the source of the universe. No one can answer the question of where either god or the universe came from. And that leaves us with no absolutes to base an absolute truth off of.

We have facts and truths that are consistent but not absolute, I think that is the difference in concepts we are talking about.

I understand what you are saying when saying things like.....

"The absolute truth is you responded in English. And it was a truth I could absolutely perceive as well."

But for all we know who ever invented English acutally called it dogshit. Or that it was a language stolen and renamed.

Have you ever gone through life thinking someting meant something, and then one day years later you find you were wrong? I have, its usualy quite embarassing because its something fairly obscure and irrelevant but every one else knew but me.

It happens especially in information on history and politics, because they lie and history is written by the victor, meaning that at best, like most politicians words, its probably only a half truth.