Jesus for President? - Page 2

You pose a curious question.
I could be enlightened.
I wouldn't tell anyone if I felt I were.

I don't think you can just put great people up as leaders - obviously, you could even argue Hitler was great because he KNEW how to manipulate. What is greatness? It could be for the purposes of good or evil, as long as you know how to gain the support of the masses..in both cases, Jesus gained support as did Hitler - for two very different objectives.

And what if you think they're doing wrong, but they don't?
Jesus had to deal with the clerics of Judaism who thought he was satanic, Hitler thought he was right in pursuing the Aryan race and destroying Jews. Both were involved in some sort of antigonistic situation with Jews, but one is upheld as a Savior, the other is upheld as evil.

Interesting..it's all about relative perspective..

And so the answer is, Jews must be evil, HA! Just kidding. I hope.

I didn't go into the enlightenment question too much before hearing her response, that and I'm not sure how "on topic" it is and if there was another thread for the issue. Either way, when it comes to the validity to the superstar status that these people reach, which they have to be known so widely, well, just because someone is popular, charismatic, perhaps powerful in some way, and even if they preach a pretty message, doesn't make them more enlightened than anyone I've talked to here per se'.

Really, I'm sure there are tons of messiahs and enlightened folks, they just don't get as recognized, cause they aren't as handsome, pretty, or charismatic (or willing to kiss ass enough), to be seen by so many to begin with.

Jesus was probably one of many trying to stand for something, he wouldn't have had such an impact if he were in a world of peace. He'd just be another carpenter going, good job on the peace people, or a conspiracy theorist trying to topple the peace which was suffocating people and restricting them in almost all forms so as to adhere to such strict peaceful guidelines. But Jesus apparently had "it", whatever it is that really gets people to listen and follow, its not just the message, or the organization to spread this message, both are old notions (i.e. already established belief systems and crusaders, old notions even in Jesus' time).

Main Entry: en·light·en
Pronunciation: in-'lI-t&n, en-
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): en·light·ened; en·light·en·ing /-'lIt-ni[ng], -t&n-i[ng]/
1 archaic : ILLUMINATE
2 a : to furnish knowledge to : INSTRUCT b : to give spiritual insight to

If we go with Webster..this discussion is going to have to start again, because not all leaders have spiritual intentions..

Mine says spiritual or information, it doesn't necessarily mean spritual, which by the way, what the hell is that? My dictionary seems confused on the spirit aspect. Its either a soul, ghost (including the holy spirit), or alcohol. Hmm, they all seem related to me. Its all about feeling happy, or trying to (sometimes, seemingly at all costs).

Dictionary meanings of words when speaking in these realms never seem to quite do them justice.

Here's my interpretation of enlightenment (at least how it is referred to in this thread).

It's a degree of potency at which one operates, the key being "light", en"light"enment... Light meaning love... Love meaning acceptance, understanding, compassion, appreciation, patience, etc... Nothing but...

Trust... Truth... Freedom...

A way of being beyond the physical and beyond the brain... Wisdom... An infinite sense of peace and knowing...

Being, breathing, seeing, manifesting LOVE all the time... One with all of Creation...

The second any of them have a bad hair day, or are grumpy they are human.

I'm pretty sure I get the idea you are trying to get across, and I would offhand say that unless you met any of these people, and even then (unless you monitored them 24/7 to see what they are really like and about), then don't assume there is really anything special about them.

Some people are just more mellow and happy, lovey dovey if you will, and preach of idealistic possiblilities, even though war never stops.

I'm pretty sure that if you or I was in the presence of an enlightened being we would know it. Someone of that potency will surely have a profound effect on the people around him or her.

War only exists because we believe it does.

Famous people have a profound effect on people, doesn't mean they are enlightened (and all possibley enlightened people mentioned were indeed famous to one degree or another, before or after death). I feel I may disagree with you on that, but again, it seems as though you have a "mystical" idea of what an enlightened person is, one that fits you and you "belief" system.

"War only exists because we believe it does."

As for that, I have no idea where you are coming from, war exists because people are killing other people. And our country is currently at war etc.

Maybe I should put that another way.

If enough of us beliieved in peace and thought only of peace, peace would become the prominant force.

I disagree.
Greed and selfishness will always prevail.

Astarte, don't forget resentment, especially when one has to work as opposed to another who for some reason does not or cannot.

Thought,

"If enough of us beliieved in peace and thought only of peace, peace would become the prominant force."

Peace is not a force, and that is why it will lose, you cannot keep peace in the face of adversity without violating peace or just dying as you are invaded.

And for those who feel war brings peace, this seems to me to be folly, it can create a type of forced submission, but not peace, America in itself is not at peace, yet we are a "free" and peace desiring nation. I don't know how the populouses of other free nations are, but we Americans seem to have some serious violence issues. And we seem to always be at war or in some sort of "conflict".

Again, Thought, (and I guess this is a question for you and or the Buddhist faith) this enlightenment, is this what you and Buddhist's strive to achieve, and according to your religion how many have done so? Do you claim to believe any claims of such achievements, even of Buddha? And of course, why?

Leftwood, it is because we live in fear due to media hyping up our senses. I'm glad I don't have a TV anymore, the nightly news is a joke to begin with and I get more information going online and sifting through up-to-the-minute headlines than I would sitting around wondering if 9 News has anything better to do than demonstrations on how cool it is to poke pencils through water balloons as an early morning wake up show.

"Peace is not a force, and that is why it will lose, you cannot keep peace in the face of adversity without violating peace or just dying as you are invaded."

I believe it is a force, just as war, fear and greed are forces. Forces we can contribute to the growth and survival of with our thoughts and our actions. We can choose to contribute to peace or war, love or hate, fear or courage, etc.

Like I have said in preious posts, I believe the human race is in the midst of an evolutionary process, and part of the reason for this is because the ecology of the planet is demanding it, because it too is evolving. The ecology of the planet is going to, as time goes on, become less and less supportive of things like fear and greed and there's going to come a time where we, as human beings, will have a choice to make, either continue to live in those kinds of states, or evolve to a life of love and take part in this natural evolutionary process. For those of us who choose fear there will be chaos, destruction and upheavel as those forces do their best to "hang on" and for those who choose love there will be peace, freedom and eventually transcendence.

Just my understanding. Take it or leave it.

"And for those who feel war brings peace"

Two wrongs have never made a right and never will. If we want peace, we have to start with peace, not war. Again, my opinion.

I don't know much about Buddhism and what it is that forms the beliefs Buddhists have but I can offer you my perspective. I believe every human being has an intrinsic desire or drive for enlightenment. Some of us acknowledge it and work toward it, some of us do not. I have no idea how many have achieved enlightenment in the past but I'm sure most if not all of the major "messengers" that have visited Earth came here already enlightened, lowering themselves to human form in order to help us "see" what we need to see in order to get on the right track. As far as how many will achieve it, again I have no idea but those who ascend will have had to attain it, at least to some degree.

Please do Mystic. I for one enjoy reading your posts. When I see your name on the "Main" page as a recent poster I always like to check our your perspective.

And you must not be referring to a thread of interest to me, so please feel free to post, who cares if you get ignored anyway, you may just be so profound that you dumbfound people to silence, who knows.

Uh, I don't know what kind of evolution you see in comparison to any other point in human species' existance, or just what kind of evolution in general.

I agree these things are forces but I meant physical, even so, they do not hold up against a mob mentality, this is a much more powerful force, mixed with the various other forces of taught hatred, encouraged hatred, societies across the globe's over acceptance to violence especially in contrast to their fear of nudity and sexuality, let alone the repressive aspects and the consequences of such repressed emotions, instincts, etc.

Fear, anger, resentment, hatred, these are forces that blind to reason, compassion, and love, because they are on a higher level of the basic survival instinct chain.

As long as we have envy, separated classes and suffering of any kind, and as long as the grass always seems greener on the other side, we will have these very natural acts, responses, and or behaviors.

True ascencion to me seems to most likely be death itself, in the sense that all we are really trying to do is escape our bodies, this life, to become one with the universe and or god. Which in a scientific sense is what happens, we slowly disperse, in all forms, from gasses to solids, to the possible souls.

The only other thing I can think of is the fear of the loss of the understood concious self. And it is understood that to change a level of conciousness or to ascend, ones perspective and understanding would then change or evolve, grow. And in death perhaps as dispersed energy we understand the universe on a different scale and speed and there is conciousness, just not one we understand.

Or perhaps there is nothing and its all a sham, or perhaps there is some odd, seemingly irrational and unreasonable, and perhaps pointless fairy tale story ending for all or a few, and hell for the rest. Who knows, not me.

Oh and as for what you said about being descending into human form and all, uh, what leads to such a, uh, descriptive conclusion?