why do you believe in god? - Page 4

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Somehow when people use the word God they expect it to me 'sufficient answer' when in fact it doesn't solve any problem.

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I will give you that one. We know what is right and wrong, and in the name of god a lot of awful things have been done that we both know are wrong. The name of God should not ever make anything wrong right. There is something wrong with that.

You are sick and dieing - deal with it, it's Gods will (ETC.)

Likewise, though evolution is a facinating subject. To believe that it is the whole truth to the mystery is throwing a lot away. When we stop asking questions then we stop growing.

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1. Jesus died by crucifiction.
2. Jesus' disiples believed that he rose and appeared to them.
3. The church persecutor Paul was suddenly changed.
4. The skeptic James, the brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed.
5. The tomb was empty.

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I will discuss your facts with you in a more appropriate thread.

"You are sick and dieing - deal with it, it's Gods will (ETC.)"

This is what I talked about in my thread. Some people, like me, just need a reason, man, and they can't accept that "shit happens". Saying it's God's will, that he works in mysterious ways, all that bullshit, is just so people like me can believe that when all this horrible stuff happens to us maybe someone else is being helped by it, indirectly of course.

To me, there is no point is arguing whether God exists or not, because some people need a god, any kind of power up there, and they won't listen to logic or all that since without this absurd, nonsensical belief they could not accept the injustices and wrongs in this world.

It's faith. That's all there is to it. If you believe, and you have faith, then you can understand the way He works better. But if somebody doesnt have faith, then it's pointless to try and convince them of His existence because they already have their mind set on the fact, in their eyes, thet God does not exist.

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if its possible for my penis to be 10 inches long
then it is 10 inches long

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*sigh* Read my post again. I am not saying that all possibilities are immediately needed or created. It is not about the possibilities existence, it is the fact of what the possibility is creating.

This also answers:

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WHY? Why can't it just be a possibilty? Why can't it just be, an intelligent thing 'might' have made the universe? Just because the concept of God is something almighty, allgood, allknowing doesn't change that.

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The "might" is what we are figuring out. The might part is the possibility that the universe needs a god "might" exist.think of it as possibilities in math. Roll a die, you have six possibilities, and one possibility is chosen. But the die with God on it, if it existed, would be a sphere to land on the same side every single time. The sphere either does exist or does not exist. If it does exist, the the only possibility it will give is God.
That is how the unvierse would work. If the universe had a possibility where it would have to depend upon the existence of a supremem being, then that possibility would be the only thing possible. Why? Because the possibility would include that the universe would have had to have been created and ruled over by God where he is necessary for the universe to exist.
So if the possibilitty of God existed, as the possibility of the ball existed, then it would only give out one result.

Also, sleepinwraith, you can go ahead and believe that the universe is limited in energy and physical boundaries. I believe in supernatural happeneings and powers. I believe that things are not limited.

"he uses no energy, never dies, never gets old, can create what he wants when he wants, etc. this is not the definition of something existing in our universe."
But it 'might' exist. Or rather it isn't part of our universe because it supposedly created the universe.

"But the die with God on it, if it existed, would be a sphere to land on the same side every single time. The sphere either does exist or does not exist. If it does exist, the the only possibility it will give is God."
You are completely arbitrarily giving God this property. For some reason you state that because God is God, therefore if he is possible he exists. Explain why if God is possible he therefore exists.

" I believe in supernatural happeneings and powers. I believe that things are not limited. "
A supernatural happening is one waiting to be explained back into the natural.

"It's faith. That's all there is to it. If you believe, and you have faith, then you can understand the way He works better. But if somebody doesnt have faith, then it's pointless to try and convince them of His existence because they already have their mind set on the fact, in their eyes, thet God does not exist."
Not necessarily, faith implies you will believe in God no matter what. I don't believe by faith (or at the very least I try not to), therefore if there is good evidence for God I would consider it.

Faith is a club. If you have it, you're in, you know things. Everything. If not, you don't know these things.

Faith is the power to believe in something with no evidence or reasoning behind it. Faith is jumping off a cliff with the belief you can fly.

I believe in a god, or something along those lines, but I don't know what "faith" feels like. I know what it means by the average definitions, but by most believers' definitions of faith it almost seems like some kind of nihilism, yet with one belief at the center of it. Or perhaps a better comparison would be taoism (daoism). You let yourself be thrown about like rag doll, just going with the flow.

The truth is, I don't believe in "faith" being the answer to all. I am forced to believe things happen for a reason, and I am forced to believe I must go through some incredibly unjust hardships for the supposed betterment of other things. But faith? If faith were the answer, we would not be talking in this thread.

Faith is nothing.

I don't know what I'm saying. My mind is a mess on this subject. I guess it sounds pretty good though.

complete faith (without question) is simply ignorance.

faith with reservations allows for (false?)comfortabilty as well as "logical" internal thought and personal growth.

the abscense of faith causes a person to lack compassion (or at least give the appearance of it) which allows for rapid personal growth, but causes difficulties when relating to others.

Hey Elemental, mind if I hit you up point-by-point? Maybe I can clarify for everyone what you are trying to say in your post.

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I guess it does depend on your definition of Gdo, but I am not saying that because there is a possibility or because of something being needed, it automatically must exist.

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Right here you are saying that possibilities don't make things exist. Correct? Realize though, that when something is needed - according to the way the universe works - it must exist.

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I am saying that if there is a possibility that there ever could exist that a supreme being with powers entwined with the universe could be created, then that thing must. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe. If the possibility exists that there may ever be something like that creature known as God, then it must exist for the survival of the universe. If God could never exist, then the universe is an independant system.

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I see the mistakes you are making in getting your words across. Take out all of the phrases you use like 'if there is a possibility', or 'could never exist' and replace them, you will get what you mean.

Like this:

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I am saying that if there exists a supreme being with powers entwined with the universe, then that thing must. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe. If a creature like God exists, then it must exist for the survival of the universe. If God doesn't exist, then the universe is an independant system.

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I think you should realize that you are getting really specific in your post. You are implying that only a certain kind of God exists. One that is 'the almighty ruler and supreme being of the universe'. This is fine, as long as you keep it within your 'if' statement. Like so: 'If there IS an ultimate Creator, then we ARE his creation.' But you should realize first that this is a thread about why you believe god exists, so you should include evidences, not statements of possibility.

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For Elemental's logic to work he must first show God is necessary. Perhaps the logic isn't necessary in this case however wink.gif ¨

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I agree with you on this one DumbTeen, this kind of logic doesn't meet the proposition of this thread. It gives a possibility of God, not a reason that he exists.

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One could come up with an equally convincing list of facts for the life of Mohamed or the Bhudda. However, religions are mutually incompitable. They each claim absolute truth and each claim that other religions are misguided infidels. It makes there claims rather dubious IMO.

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I understand your mixed feelings about differing opinions of who is right or wrong. These religions differ, and they are mutually incompatible, but saying this doesn't rule out the possibility that either one of them could be right.

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Second, I don't think belief in God has sprouted from logic. Attempting to prove God with logic, I have often found dishonest (which may not be the case here). Often using logical technicalities and ignoring other explanations. Because when one seeks to prove God, one already has the belief and THEN attempts to justify it with logic. Thus, there was something else which made you believe before any logic intervened.

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Personally, I don't think logic is something we can really use to prove God exists. At least not in the way you seem to be defining it above. I don't think we can prove the existence of God by thinking and philosophy alone, if at all. I don't totally find it dishonest, but I do find it lacking. I just believe that there should simply be evidence of God's existence in the world; mere traces of him being here and interacting with us. Logic and historical data can show that something can have a high probability of being true.

And in my case, I couldn't have believed in God before it was justified to me. Back then, I didn't know anything about God, and God didn't make sense. It just took an open mind to take a serious look at the evidence of what I first believed, and of what I believe now.

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Besides, I find logically proving God is completely incompatible with idea of faith. Why would faith be needed if God is logically the only thing to believe?

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I think that many people have a misconception that faith means believing in something that you can't truly know. Although I think that faith means believing what you believe no matter what the cost, and living according to that faith in your daily life, I don't think one has to be ignorant of whether their faith is valid or not. Faith is still needed even if God is logically believable. You still have to believe and trust him.

Think of it this way, IF God is logically believable and IF you knew this and chose not to trust him or pledge allegience to him anyway, would you still be considered to have faith in him? It's the same thing as placing faith in your family, in the government, and in science. Faith is trust. And some choose not to put faith in Government, science, or family. The same is with the God of Christians. God gives us the choice to choose him or walk away from him.

Even though these are sincere difficulties being raised, I don't think they account very well for Jesus resurrection.

Stated briefly, we know that Jesus' disciples sincerely believed that he rose from the dead and appeared to them, especially since they were willing to die specifically for this message. Moreover, a number of outside data strongly suggest that their beliefs were true. Considering the fact that there are no viable opposing theories that can account for the the disciples' beliefs, Jesus' resurrection is the only plausible explanation for the historical data.

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I will discuss your facts with you in a more appropriate thread.

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What makes my facts inappropriate for this thread? We are talking about why one believes in God. These are my reasons, or more appropriately (no pun intended) these are just the bare-bones of my reasons. So why talk about them outside of the topic in debate?

"These religions differ, and they are mutually incompatible, but saying this doesn't rule out the possibility that either one of them could be right."
That's true.

" I don't totally find it dishonest, but I do find it lacking."
Sorry, I don't mean to say trying to prove it is dishonest in itself, its just that often the person attempting is being dishonest.

"And some choose not to put faith in Government, science, or family. The same is with the God of Christians. God gives us the choice to choose him or walk away from him."
I didn't think of faith in God that way.. Interesting, makes logic work with faith.

"Considering the fact that there are no viable opposing theories that can account for the the disciples' beliefs, Jesus' resurrection is the only plausible explanation for the historical data."
I'll have to take a look at the record myself.

Elemental said:

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Sorry, I don't mean to say trying to prove it is dishonest in itself, its just that often the person attempting is being dishonest

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Don't worry, I hate it when people are like that also. I find most times that in debates like these, people are just being dishonest with themselves. There are not enough people out there listening to what others have to say, so they show themselves as who they are - closed-minded. And typically, they either don't have any clear reason (common-sense or facts) to add to the discussion, nor will they look for reason. It all ends up becoming pretty subjective. **sigh**

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I didn't think of faith in God that way.. Interesting, makes logic work with faith.

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Yeah, totally! Typically most Christians believe this way - "faith" meaning "trust" - but the majority of Christians you would run into in life wouldn't realize it themselves because they don't have any objective reasons as to why they have that faith. Mainly their reasons are pretty subjective. Even though I don't think this is completely wrong (subjectivity I mean), I think it is better to have a good foundation for why someone believes in something.

You'll find Christians out there who have faith in God. Their reasons for having such faith is Jesus' resurrection, but when asked for their reasons for believing in the resurrection... They have no clue!

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I'll have to take a look at the record myself.

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If you have any questions or problems with what I bring up, let me know.

Faith to me is when you pray and think someone is listening. Jesus describes God as the father. The indians called it the great spirit and other religions see God as mother.

I once had an idea or belief of what God is. But do to (what I believe to be revelations), I don't have a clue what God is, and on this earth I don't think I can. But because I grew up praying "God my Father." That is how I still picture him today.

I do have faith. The bible talks about those who do not have faith as if faith is given to us from God. This is very confusing to me, because why would God give some people faith and not give others faith? But that's what the bible says, and if you believe the bible then you know that if you have faith, you are no greater then those who do not, because it did not come from yourself, but from God. I can say that the bible is right about one thing, some people don't have faith, this is true. I can't imagine it, but have to also agree that my faith is not my own creation, therefore it is not an accomplishment of mine, so I can't think of myself more highly from those who do not. So while it is difficult for me concieve that there is no God, I am equally sure that those who do not believe in God likewise cannot fathom the possibility.

I have heard rumer (I cannot confirm or deny) that if you want faith, you can pray and ask for it and you will receive it.