The Capitalism Debate!!!! - Page 2

Hmm . . . I tend to see it a bit differently.
As I stated earlier, & as you called it imperialism . . . being wealthy is not a new aspect or perception. While planes & trains & automobiles are relatively new aspects.
GOD's promise is to fulfill the need , not the greed.

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What is certain is that being wealthy, and the political and social stability it entails, is only possible in a capitalist society.

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That I may have use or poceesions doesn't make me rich in the material sense but in the spiritual sense?

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I don't understand the plant metaphore.

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Let me put it to you another way. Went to a conference on activities of helping those 3rd world countries. The speaker opened with a humours (but pointed) short story. the gist of which was an international team goes to a village to help the people grow their own food. Choosing a good site with plenty of water & soil rich in nutrients, they show the locals how to plant the crops.
The locals go along with the work with less vigor than they expected. Time passes & the team comes to harvest the crops only to find that a herd of hippos had already harvested.
What may work well in our world may not be suitable to all situations. Ignoring the local people understanding of their needs showed the ignorance of the well-educated specialist.

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Democracies in economic hardship often fail.

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Japan's economic incentive (capitalism) was probably at best secondary to the need or desire of self respect. Having been defeated in such a manner, tended to focus their society on beating us at our own game . . . capitalism. Although I would admit that the island nation's social-economic structure is better suited to the capitalic form. Pre-war Japan has always tended toward the colonial aspect. (Example Okinawa, Ryukyu islands & the developement of Karate'
As far as the other Axis nation's, Germany was desolute from the WWI and Italy was floundering as well which set the stage for those dictatorships to come to power.
South Korean democracy, you never been there have you? Military service is not an option, to acquire officer rank in the military requires a level of proficiency in the martial arts (Korean Karate'> Very militant democracy.
Most of the USSR, lies in rather frigid latitudes which effects the length of time of productivity & the amount of productivity. If they had expended their energy (resources) producing a sound economic system within as China did instead of becomiing insnared in the cold war, they would probably still be going strong?

"GOD's promise is to fulfill the need , not the greed. "
He's often not even fulfilled that promise.

" That I may have use or poceesions doesn't make me rich in the material sense but in the spiritual sense? "
As I said, if you don't care about material wealth, that's fine. Your free to not work in our liberal capitalist societies.

"South Korean democracy, you never been there have you? Military service is not an option, to acquire officer rank in the military requires a level of proficiency in the martial arts (Korean Karate'> Very militant democracy. "
Well they have to be with a hostile N. Korea.

"Japan's economic incentive (capitalism) was probably at best secondary to the need or desire of self respect."
Germany faced the same problem after WW1. Both were humiliated by foreign powers.
Germany knew economic failure and therefore fell into dictatorship.
Japan knew economic success and therefore democracy sustained itself.

"Most of the USSR, lies in rather frigid latitudes which effects the length of time of productivity & the amount of productivity. If they had expended their energy (resources) producing a sound economic system within as China did instead of becomiing insnared in the cold war, they would probably still be going strong?"
People come up with lousy geographical reasons for economic failure.

Canada, Norway, Finland are on average colder then the USSR. And yet these not only have BETTER social plans but are also far far richer per capita. You'll note that Finland has no natural resources worth mentioning compared to the USSR.

People don't seem to grasp that economic liberty means success. Read some Adam Smith, he explains in detail why mercantilism (imperialism) was inferior to free market capitalism. Capitalism allows a unique process, inefficient or unwanted organisations (companies) die to be subsequently replaced by a better one. That never occurs in a state economy like the USSR's.

Or rather, this process, the dying off of inefficient things, occured on the level of the State instead of the company. The result? In America, Pan America might go bankrupt, in Russia, the Soviet State died.

This process (analog to that found in Darwinian evolution), is fundamental to the success of the USA and Western Europe.

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He's often not even fulfilled that promise.

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Just what is the need & what is wanted or desired?
Would that include giving an oppurtunity to share or to help others? Jesus healed a person, after his disciples discussed what sin had promoted the illness. Overhearing their discussion, He replied the sickness came so His actions would show that He held God's blessing, not because of some unfaithfulness as was taught in Job.

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Your free to not work in our liberal capitalist societies.

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Of course, as the procalmed democracy allows that I may live (& work) according to my needs, not someone elses greed. But as this is not a religious thread, this is going of thread.

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Germany knew economic failure and therefore fell into dictatorship.
Japan knew economic success and therefore democracy sustained itself.

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Bit confusing, relating post WWI Germany with post WWII Japan? But Nazism did a real bang up job on their economics, may be even better than capitalism?

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People come up with lousy geographical reasons for economic failure.

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If they had expended their energy (resources) producing a sound economic system within, as China did.

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This process (analog to that found in Darwinian evolution), is fundamental to the success of the USA and Western Europe.

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Just as fundamental is depletion of minerals in soil leads to decrease in harvest quantiy & quality.

"Just what is the need & what is wanted or desired? "
I'm just saying, people starve, that's a fact.

And the Lord doesn't give a hoot.

'Bit confusing, relating post WWI Germany with post WWII Japan?"
Yes. Both had imperial regimes and were thoroughly humiliated and de-balled militarily.

Germany became the Third Reich. Japan became an ally.
All because the people of Japan had food, steady jobs and did not have to facehyper inflation.

"But Nazism did a real bang up job on their economics, may be even better than capitalism? "
Nonesense. Fascism is basically mercantilist/imperialist. If we won the war it is because of superior US production. The Nazi economy was not sustainable as it was based on the pillage of Europe (France/Austria/Czechoslovakia notably).

" If they had expended their energy (resources) producing a sound economic system within, as China did. "
China abandoned the State economy. Do you recognise this? They stopped having all decisions made in Beijing. The Russians allowed bureaucracy to grind everything to a halt because they were ruled from the capital and had NO INCENTIVE TO WORK.

" Just as fundamental is depletion of minerals in soil leads to decrease in harvest quantiy & quality."
That is fairly unrelated to my statement.

Do you or do you not recognise that people are richer in capitalist countries?
Do you or do you not recognise that the process I have described (analog to Darwinian evolution) exists in capitalist societies and allows them to be more efficient?

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Do you or do you not recognise that people are richer in capitalist countries?

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Yes I recognize the material wealth as well as the spiritually poor.

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Do you or do you not recognise that the process exists in capitalist societies and allows them to be more efficient?

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I question what you call efficiency, as I had used automobiles as an example to demostrate.
Ford brought the assembly line into American manufacturing.
The process is more efficient, saving by repetative production of parts & work. If all manufactures of cars used the same parts (say the fuel pump) then it certainly would be more efficient. Even with a limited number of variations of particular parts would allow for variations of make and models.
But the standardizing of components would stiffle inovations.
Japan's had to restructure it's manufacturing processes giving it an advantage over american goods which were still using outdated manufacturing process. We had to do retool & die casting to meet the changes in economics & stop producing gas hogs.
Generally there is the need to compromise (trade off of values). Contrary to the belief that capitalism produces the most cost effective system the auto industry doesn't represent this ideal in capitalism?

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That is fairly unrelated to my statement.

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As with math the slope is given the aspect of a constant but the reallity is that they tend to be a curve which could be characterized as having steep portions at the extreme values & constant value in central range.
Capitalist have no more right than Christians to force others to accept their way of life or their belief system. Economic prosperity has little value if you decieve to steal & murder to acquire it, even if they are justify such with robes of refined richness.

"Japan's had to restructure it's manufacturing processes giving it an advantage over american goods which were still using outdated manufacturing process. We had to do retool & die casting to meet the changes in economics & stop producing gas hogs."
Exactly! Japanese innovation made them more efficient. America then had to adapt.

The result was easier to make cars.

" Yes I recognize the material wealth as well as the spiritually poor."
I don't know about you, but I don't think its the government's role to intervene in spirituality. What do you propose? We must forego separation of church and state? You want perhaps a Christian Republic based on Iran? The Iranians certainly are much more spiritual.

Nonesense. People like to blame their government for everything now, they not only expect social aid but now also blame it for their own perceived spiritual hollowness. Frankly, we are human beings. Englishmen in the British Empire were not more altruistic, Germans of the Third Reich were not better then us, Russians in the Soviet Union were not more moral and no, the French (despite their posing) have never been sophisticated.

You cannot bash something without comparing, or you'll be doomed to spouting subjective nonesense.

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You cannot bash something without comparing

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I think 2 things are a problem here;
1) we are comparing Post WW1 (PreWW2) Germany with post WWII Japan and
2) the value of efficiency. {Cost analaysis of product? Amount of waste?, etc.}

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Japanese innovation made them more efficient. America then had to adapt.

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Japan's retooled to an upscale version to enter the american & european market.
As the market changed to their adaptation.

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I don't think its the government's role to intervene

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Which is a very good question which we have yet to discuss, 'what is the government's roll?
To form societies we gather for common good, to meet our needs. The act of such formation includes it own set of needs.
The concert in a field or erecting a home produces the need for long term disposal of waste as well as to provide source of food.
While (private) capitalist porta-lets will do for a concert but a septic tank is neede for a home; until many homes produce the need for city sewer systems?
Somethings are by nature needs which form a common good of the people it serves, I certainly don't see capitalic government as serving all the people.
So in a capitalic system, it is necessary for the government (local, state & federal) to maintain a communistic or socialistic nature to provide certian (medical care, police, fire, water waste disposal{?}, etc) needs.

"1) we are comparing Post WW1 (PreWW2) Germany with post WWII Japan and "
How is this not a relevant comparison?

" Which is a very good question which we have yet to discuss, 'what is the government's roll? "
Lets be clear. We're talking about being 'spiritual'. As you claim capitalism is spiritually bankrupt. You have also not provided any alternative (socialist/commie systems are not only less moral and more corrupt in the end, but also less efficent).

Whatever you mean by this spiritual void, it is not the government's role to intervene. There is separation of church/god/spirituality and state. That must be clear, the Pope (or any churchman) has no right to have any political power over me or you.

"So in a capitalic system, it is necessary for the government (local, state & federal) to maintain a communistic or socialistic nature to provide certian (medical care, police, fire, water waste disposal{?}, etc) needs."
Certain things must be guaranteed by local government. Namely equal rights. In effect, the government attempt (within reason) to limit the effects of the arbirary. This means helping those who are hindered by congenital diseases, medicaid etc... But all this within reason, the government may provide a service, but it may never (as is often the case) ban private companies from competing against the gov. Because the government (because it has a painfully slow darwinian process) is bound to be inefficient (there are more then enough stories of 'my friend had to wait X months for my surgery).

Frankly, I think let the local people decide what they want. Government is dictatorship, if it is necessary, let it be the government for the locals, by the locals.

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How is this not a relevant comparison?

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Not that is not relevant but it is deceptive. The WWI had put Germany into the press repaying those who had defeated it.
The world was determined to leave the Germany with out the means to war, yet the economic depression was the major contributing factor to the rise of facism.

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Lets be clear. We're talking about being 'spiritual'. As you claim capitalism is spiritually bankrupt.

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No that I would have to attribute to Jesus, whom some call Christ.

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You have also not provided any alternative (socialist/commie systems are not only less moral and more corrupt in the end, but also less efficent).

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Force of habit to apply the scientific method to a study.
I first attemp t to define the the component agents and how they react to form the products that they do?

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Whatever you mean by this spiritual void, it is not the government's role to intervene.
There is separation of church/god/spirituality and state.
That must be clear, the Pope (or any churchman) has no right to have any political power over me or you.

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I don't remember saying thing like that did I,
if so let me appologize for some missconception?

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Frankly, I think let the local people decide what they want. Government is dictatorship, if it is necessary, let it be the government for the locals, by the locals.

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Yes if you look at the list of stated factors most are in fact delegated the certain levels of government to decide if a capitalist cooperation or cooperative of government agencies form is used.

"The world was determined to leave the Germany with out the means to war, yet the economic depression was the major contributing factor to the rise of facism."
Not the world, just France.

And thanks for restating what I said : economic failure, regardless of democratic institutions, leads to extremism and dictatorship.

A stable economy and middle class leads to and maintains democracy.

" I don't remember saying thing like that did I, if so let me appologize for some missconception?"
You claimed capitalism is spiritually bankrupt. In fact this seems to be your only concrete criticism as you have conceded that capitalism is superior in terms of creation of wealth.

You also said " Which is a very good question which we have yet to discuss, 'what is the government's roll? ".

Hence you implied that it was the government's role to ensure we are a spiritual people.

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A stable economy and middle class leads to and maintains democracy.

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That is true. However Capitalism does not maintain the middle class, it seeks to only maintain the rich to become richer. Capitalism allowed to reign unchecked will destroy the middle-class and create a two class society, creating its own demise. It is up to the government to keep Capitalism in check.

I disagree completely. I think you need to look at historical facts to make a judgement on capitalism. As the economy gets bigger, more and more complex jobs must be done by those who were of the working/farmer classes. This means that if capitalism allows economic growth it also gives new opportunities to working classes.

All capitalist countries as they got richer have known imbalanced growth between rich and poor. But as the country develops eventually a middle class appears. This is not the government's doing. It just happens. This is not a theory, it is a statement. Its happened in France, the USA, Japan and Great Britain.

The only flaw in capitalism, or rather laissez faire capitalism, is the possibility of another Great Depression. The solution is government intervention, but not to protect a middle class (which does fine on its own) but to ensure the economy functions.

Thank you, Okcity Kid glad you chimmed in.

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It is up to the government to keep Capitalism in check.

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Watching Jim Lehrer(?) the other nite. Had a story about some author 'Kennedy' I think, wrote as an environmental advocate. His book was being hyped as anti Bush, because he listed where Bush has loaded the government agencies protecting our enviroment with those who (lobbyist) having ties to the major infractrators of these issues.

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But as the country develops eventually a middle class appears. This is not the government's doing. It just happens. This is not a theory, it is a statement.

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Yes, that would be the merchanitism you spoke of?

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The only flaw in capitalism, or rather laissez faire capitalism, is the possibility of another Great Depression . . .

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The flaw in capitalism is they promoted it as democracy: government serving the people, not serving the rich capitalist. Some people still seek the truth, not accepting the geilded cage.

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The solution is government intervention, but not to protect a middle class (which does fine on its own) but to ensure the economy functions.

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Well we are hoping that the will of the people will be done & our government heeds the people needs by serving the people.

" Yes, that would be the merchanitism you spoke of? "
I don't know where you get that idea. Mercantilism might be called today economic nationalism. It is the act of harming the global economy for the protection of a national economy. Farmer subsidies or Bush's steel tariffs are examples of this.

"The flaw in capitalism is they promoted it as democracy: government serving the people, not serving the rich capitalist. Some people still seek the truth, not accepting the geilded cage."
No, capitalist countries who mature naturally devellop into democracies. That means commitment to maintain free markets and investment in education and the nation's resources. You will not find a single rich capitalist country that is not a liberal democracy (assuming the distribution of wealth is reasonable enough to allow a middle class). Former dictatorships like Taiwan or South Korea INEVITABLY became democratic because of the demands of a rich middle class (the same thing happened in france 200 years ago).

Therefore, countries that start off as unpopular pro-US dictatorships can (through investment and free markets) become rich liberal democracies which are grateful towards the US. Examples include : West Germany, Italy, South Korea and Japan.

We have a moral duty to ensure that when we flatten a country we turn it into a South Korea (as opposed to an Chile or Nicaragua).

China never became a democracy.

We have yet to see Capitalism go unchecked by government. So there is no real way to know what pure Capitalism will create, it is all a good guess.

However, the fear that some like me have is that we are about to find out what it is like to have pure Capitalism unchecked by government. Capitalism has begun to become our government. They don't mind putting the small farmer, or any small business out of business. Craftsmanship is sacrificed to profits; wholesome natural grown produce is sacrificed to profits. Though it may seem we have more for less we are all working harder for it?

When I was a little boy, I would come home from school and mom would have fresh cinnamon apples waiting for us, hot out of the oven. Now when kids go home, no one is there waiting for them, mom has to work.