SADDAM HUSSEIN CAUGHT! - Page 3

"1. Saddam's capture being used as positive re-inforcement for the post-war cynics is predictable; without finding any WMDs this is all the Bush administration has to hold onto and anyone with a reasonable knowledge of politics will have seen it coming a mile away."
Lucky for Bush, many Americans are ignorant of international politics (less so then before 9/11, but still very inward looking). This will help Bush's appearance at home in the eye of many Americans.

"1 The truth is it doesn't change the reasons for the war, nor does it change the number of deaths occurring every day."
His ousting will change the number of deaths caused by Saddam himself and the UN embargo.

"3. To believe that our method of democracy should be painted over every other country on the planet is disgusting and arrogant."
Had Iraq's government been a traditional government. Had it been a monarchy, caliphate or even islamic theocracy, I might agree, these sort of governments can be culturally inbedded into a people.
If Saddam been a "divine" rule, or had he been part of a centuries long line of Kings, you would have a point.
However, that is not the case, thus he does not represent the Iraqi people's culture, values, past or anything, he's only a murderous despot.

"Our society is disgustingly capitalistic and it is slowly degrading."
That is your opinion, the main problems with America are terrible advertisements, political campaigns and religious zealots, in my opinion.

" I wouldn't place that sort of shady government on any other country"
What naive world are you living in? The vast majority of governments are shady, its politics. Chirac is the most corrupt guy arround, Burlosconi should be behind bars, Putin was against the war because Saddam owed him money and most all the of the above have sold weapons to the Baathists (sp?) at one time or another.

", and it is arrogant to believe we have the right to police anything. It is not our job to control any foreign nations or impose our ideas on them."
Actually I agree. The next time the Serbs try to wipe out some obscure ethnic group, we should just let them do there stuff. I mean our ideas of the protection of minorities are hardly universal.

"I don't exactly know how any of you have the right to condemn Saddam as an evil tyrant. He had palaces and may have been brutal and raped women... but how many people does a man kill this way? A hundred? Maybe a thousand?"
You seem to be very forgiving of Saddam. Strange that you condemn Bush for commiting actions which are ambiguous in their outcomes and intentions, yet you question our right to judge brutal slayings, tortures, rapes and territorial wars.

"Any times he killed Iranians or Curds he was supported and even given military aid by USA."
And the US was again bad at that time. I think the US has the right to change its foreign policy, I believe human lives are worth more then consistent foreign policy.

Decius: Many of things you say are true, However it is truth compounded to the extend of exaggeration, so much so that you are not hearing what Dumbteen is saying.

We have become Capitalists and this is very wrong, and if it doesn't end, like the Roman empire, we will collapse in our own mire.

We cannot Americanize the world, especially nations like Iraq, they won't allow us to.

Saddam was a tyrant, you're right, so what, it's none of our business. This whole war was waged for two reasons. Saddam made death threats against Bush Sr and the Bush family comes from an oil rich family from Texas. It was personal, this makes the war even more immoral, as it is improper use of a government office. Because we are capitalists, we're going to ignore all this because it means cheaper gas at the station and a jump in the stock market. Money rules. We need to step back and look to see where this is leading us. Deceptively it is leading us astray. Like many children stories, we are being lured in by the satisfaction of our wants till we are fat and happy, then we will be killed to serve a greater evil, money.

However - Dumbteen is not wrong. Stranger things have happened in the history of our world. This could turn to be a good thing. My only explanation is that Saddam and his regime are more evil than Bush and his cabinet. In the old testament of the bible it explains that it is God who causes nations to rise and fall. Don't know if that's whats really happening here, but its an explanation. We did something wrong and something good is coming of it. With caution I will not join any victory parades but continue to help people see that capitalism leads to no good. So far we've been lucky. Maybe their is a merciful God waiting for us to grow up.

"That being said, in a theoretical sense, if something very bad were to occur in the next few months in the US, would you hold the same viewpoint?"
I would say : "Hey, the US should have seen it coming" and I'll think of all the Iraqis who are living (hopefully by then) in a free democratic country.

"I am positive this war, and also parading Saddam around will dramatically increase the terrorist activity in Iraq, and also the US."
So far so good, granted its only been a short while. In the short term, I will agree, it will undoubtedly increase the risk of terrorist threat. However, I believe the longterm benefits of a democratized Iraq outweigh the risk of terrorist attack. Saddam's ousting will undoubtedly save far more lives then even another 9/11.

"And I again state that it is not your perogative to judge another society's method of government, nor to think it is appropriate to impose our method of life on others."
Saddam wasn't their society's traditional method of government. Monarchies or theocracies tend to be culturally imbedded into a people, but socialist dictatorships? No.
I again say, you would have a point if the US had just ousted a monarch or ayatollah (sp?).

"To think of Iraq ever being in a state of peace is total foolishness. And, as I've said before, Palestine is a great example of why occupation simply does not work."
This is not occupation, well it is, but its not permanent. Democracy worked in Germany (a country used to Monarchs) and Japan (which had a monarchy for 1000 years). If the US has the will, there is no reason I know of which should make a democratic Iraq fail.

"by reading about past events.by reading about past events."
Well, I know plenty of WW2 and early cold war history if that's what you mean. I have little knowledge of late cold war right now, but I'm getting to that.

Oh, my God I am having a dejavu, having had this conversation before . .

quote:

---

Democracy worked in Germany (a country used to Monarchs) and Japan (which had a monarchy for 1000 years)

---

. . Didn't I already point out significant differentiations in regard to WWII's Hitler's Germany and the Samari's Lord of Japan?
edit:The World Wars were wars for the Supreme Lordship of the World? But then one might say that all wars fall into the category of Wanting to Rule the World, Play God?

quote:

---

If the US has the will, there is no reason I know of which should make a democratic Iraq fail.

---

Still not able to make the distinction between capitalism & democracy? Editemocracy is something formed by the people; to serve the people not something forced down the throat!

"Still not able to make the distinction between capitalism & democracy?"
There is the possibility of both. Bush went in to have access to the Iraqi market and oil, granted, but regardless there is no reason he wouldn't (and indeed he is in a position where that is the only option) install an iraqi democracy as well.

". . Didn't I already point out significant differentiations in regard to WWII's Hitler's Germany and the Samari's Lord of Japan?"
Err I don't recall.

I can't believe some of the bull shit I am hearing. All this crap about Bush, geez it's not even THAT big of a coincidence, damn people its like almost a full fucking year till the next election.

Sadam was an evil dictator, if you deny that I have to say you are a Nazi with no care for human life. We did what we had to do, we saved thousands upon thousands of people from being tortured and killed, children from being raped, and we stopped more wars from forming because they inevitably would with Sadam in power.

Stop with all the damn history lessons. Sadam is NOT Hitler, although they both are murderous bastards, what Hitler or anyone else did is irrelavent.

Bush made the right choice, and for the right reasons. People were being killed. End of story. If you don't think that was enough reason to try and stop it, I hope you burn in hell, you heartless worm.

I'd also like to point a few other things out. I am so 100% sure that I would stake my life on it, that if GORE had done this and captured Sadam, you woudln't be saying all this conspiracy shit. If that's not Liberal idiocy, I don't know what is. Take the Mad Cow Disease thing going on. The LIberals are actually saying that is it Bush's fault. That's stupid. Bush has no control over that, any idiot would know that is connected to the FDA, and if you don't know what that is, stop reading and don't talk to me because you are too misinformed to have discussions with me. I will read some other posts, and post more soon as I can.

Oh yeah...what we had to do, uh huh, o-kay.

You don't see that there are plenty of people being raped here in America, and in multiple other countries, that people are starving to death in America, and in several other countries, that people are killing eachother over streets and drugs, that people are dying from diseases that we have the cure for everyday, can't people see that WE need to pay the fuck attention to where our money and resources are going, can't people see that we need to take care of our own before worrying about some country half way across the world that has no concrete factual undisputed evidence that they are tied to the tradegy of September 11th. People are ignorant because they either choose to be, or they do not have the mental capacity to understand the truth. So blindly follow the fucking government, follow without opening your eyes and mind to what is going on around us, go ahead, but I won't. And that is where I stand.

No. I'm not following anyone, I just belive liberating those people was the right thing to do.

Other than that, I agree with you, we need to worry about our own country a little more, that was a good point.

"I'd also like to point a few other things out. I am so 100% sure that I would stake my life on it, that if GORE had done this and captured Sadam, you woudln't be saying all this conspiracy shit. If that's not Liberal idiocy, I don't know what is. Take the Mad Cow Disease thing going on. The LIberals are actually saying that is it Bush's fault. That's stupid. Bush has no control over that, any idiot would know that is connected to the FDA, and if you don't know what that is, stop reading and don't talk to me because you are too misinformed to have discussions with me. I will read some other posts, and post more soon as I can." You're a right wing, republican capitalist and I'm a worm.

I had a lot more to say, but my stupid cat stepped on my keyboard and erased everything.

quote:

---

Stop with all the damn history lessons. Sadam is NOT Hitler, what Hitler or anyone else did is irrelavent.

---

Yes, it is important to understand history if we learn from our past mistakes and failures as well as count our success.

quote:

---

Bush made the right choice, and for the right reasons. People were being killed. End of story.

---

Historically speaking we have (the government) put ourselves in the position as the aggressive (Nazi Germeny's and Feudal Japan's position) role in these actions. We promoted the cold war and therefore have in fact promoted the present situation within the World! These things did not come to pass by some ramdom sequence, rather they were formed by those proccesses which we put into motion.

quote:

---

People are ignorant because they either choose to be, or they do not have the mental capacity to understand the truth.

---

Few can not understand, most choose to act ignorant because they 'do not desire the truth'. Otherwise they would be convicted by the Truth and away from their waywardness!

quote:

---

Bush made the right choice, and for the right reasons.

---

Who in Hell lied to you, telling you that we (the US) did anything to promote capitalism in the World?
One point that seems to have been lost from our sight, is our complicity (complacency?). If Iraq was forming their own government by their own standards then I might agree with the term 'democracy'. So I make the distinction between 'helping others' and 'forcing others'; there is a slight difference between the two, although others don't seem to notice?

quote:

---

Other than that, I agree with you, we need to worry about our own country a little more, that was the good point.

---

Give him a fair trail before we hang him!
Eldred
PS - Think about hanging the whole fucking family!

First off you have to remember that the people that are still dieing in Iraq are dieing from resistance groups. Yes they can be called terrorist, but they are resistance groups. Just like the French had them and the Polish during WW2 this is what they are. And even after Hitler died there was resistance. Though for the most part the war was over, there was resistance and there probably will be resistance for every war there after.
Yes some people will think, oh Saddam is dead, of well no point in fighting. But you also have to remember that some people are extremists, and maybe the fight means much more to them, and that is why you can't say that just because Saddam is dead all will be happy.

Also having to do with the video of Saddam getting his medical check up. Yes this is a tad bit harsh to show of, but you can't blame the government really. The goverment just wanted to show us the U.S. people that has was captured and he is being taken care of. The whole parading theme comes from the media that has to show it and talk about it 24/7. I'm suprised they didn't make a box that just loops the video over and over again.
And yes it did come close to election time, and whether it was coincidental or a government ploy I don't know, but we can say it will def. help Bush. And who is to blame, not the government, not the media, yes us. We are to blame for this because we live in country with people that think this way. We live with people that could care less about the real issuse and just follow what the media tells us.

And yes we have no hope to change this because though you try and look into the issues you are just a small majority of the people that do so.

Dugbug - I've nothing to add to what you said!

"Bush made the right choice, and for the right reasons."
Bush said the USA went in there for SECURITY, because biological, chemical and who knows maybe even nuclear weapons were being made by Saddam.
However, this is utter nonesense, Iraq was not a threat and let alone a "clear and present danger".
It was the right thing, for the wrong reason.

"democracy is something formed by the people; to serve the people not something forced down the throat!"
Saddam's regime was shoved down their throats, if giving them the option to choose their gov is shoving something down their throats, we're not thinking on the same wavelength.

"People are ignorant because they either choose to be, or they do not have the mental capacity to understand the truth."
That's only true in the west. That's completely untrue in a country under a authoritarian government.

On capitalism : Although this war was about spreading democracy and ensuring US security (supposedly), and not just capitalism, I'm disturbed you all believe capitalism to be a bad thing.
There is a reason you aren't struggling to find bread in post-communist country, there is a reason the US is dominating economically even it closest European modern socialist allies, there is a reason China is growing and the USSR popped : Free market capitalism.
The system we have now is hardly perfect, and is certainly harsh on 3rd World farmers and indeed some problems could be solved by less strict adherence to free market capitalism; nonetheless capitalism is something I think we should thank. Its helped those countries which have adopted it incredibly, economically and in terms of health and there is no reason "spreading capitalism" should not go hand in hand with democracy.

Teen, You are right we are not on the same wavelength.

quote:

---

Saddam's regime was shoved down their throats, if giving them the option to choose their gov is shoving something down their throats, we're not thinking on the same wavelength.

---

If this was a question of Some Pro-Christian Alliance war to convert Iraq to Christianity, would you be OK with it?
Then why is it OK for you to war upon other nations over economics, etc. . . . what chose this is what we want you to be , this is our standard to which you must adhere!

quote:

---

That's only true in the west. That's completely untrue in a country under a authoritarian government.

---

Authoritarian governments, like Marco's of the Phillipines or the shaw (sp) of Iran?

quote:

---

On capitalism : Although this war was about spreading democracy and ensuring US security (supposedly), and not just capitalism, I'm disturbed you all believe capitalism to be a bad thing.

---

No I am not a capitalist, Thank GOD. At least that is one blessing!