Cloning - Page 4

Would a smoking addiction really be such a bad thing if it didn't kill you?
I suppose the new punnishment for smoking would be the expense of the new organs necessary to replace the old ones.

Cloning is a bad thing. Assuming there was a god, then us creating entire human beings would take creation out of Gods hands.

Not to mention, we'd have to pass laws against clone discrimination. Would we allow them to live among us? To go to our schools at a young age, to be introduced to religion...and realizing that they were not created as others around them? Would we place a delicate flesh and bone structure in a position like that? To be brought into a world only to suffer? Do you think it has a soul..because we have duplicated the physical body of someone else? Cloning organs and parts of the body are one thing, but an entire human being is immoral and unsafe. A creature with a mind equal to ours could do some damage, if not raised correctly. We'd have to bring him up safely, cloning could'nt be something shared with the public. They'd have to believe they were as us. Equal and not inferior.

Imagine right now, you were a clone. You feel and see just as anyone else, the only difference is that you werent created by God. I know i know, someone said earlier that if we can clone humans, then it is Gods will for us to do so..and hopefully god gives them a soul. Besides, God didn't directly conjur us up like he did adam and eve..so whats the difference with clones? because it isnt a nature. We're applying the right combination of actions and tools to come up with something, that cant be found in nature. Paving paradise is one thing, but creating a human being with free will to think and make its own decisions..can be disatrous.

What if the first human clone had developmental problems. 20 years later we find him in the hospital with cancer. We cant clone him again, because he obviously didnt work in the first place. We cant give him another organ, because the cells throughout his entire body, are replicating too fast.

He's been raised on life about us, and our God.. do you think he's gonna pray? Knowing that he's a clone? Would our hospital put him under..because there's a different set of laws for clones? Or would they listen to him repenting...him assuming he'd done something wrong? Telling everyone he was raised with, that he loved them...and god willing that he'd see them in heaven. Would this "person" even know that he was a clone? Would we tell him? If we did, would he beg God to give him the chance that others had? What kind of a fucked up world would allow a creation with the emotional, and mental capabilities of ourselves, to be something left to chance. A roll of a dice.. in the hands of a being just as frail as the thing they attempt to create?

Cloning humans is not a good thing. We consider it for our own well being, not the life we're attempting to create. And by bringing something into this world, that is an exact duplication of us, and not having the same consideration for it as we do ourselves, will result in our own distruction.

Only the ignorance and egotism that a human can possess, would consider something so stupid.

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Cloning is a bad thing. Assuming there was a god, then us creating entire human beings would take creation out of Gods hands.

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There is no spiritual difference between making a man with your mind and making a man with you dick.

Both are fundamentally (wo)man-made.

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Do you think it has a soul..because we have duplicated the physical body of someone else?

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Identical twins have souls. Therefore, clones have souls.

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Cloning organs and parts of the body are one thing, but an entire human being is immoral and unsafe.

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I agree that it's currently unsafe, as it is new technology. This should ease with time.

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A creature with a mind equal to ours could do some damage, if not raised correctly. We'd have to bring him up safely, cloning could'nt be something shared with the public. They'd have to believe they were as us. Equal and not inferior.

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They are the same as us. If they aren't different, how can they be inferior? Only the ignorant will believe this, if the government educates them then the ignorant will be a small minority.

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because it isnt a nature. We're applying the right combination of actions and tools to come up with something, that cant be found in nature.

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The countless vaccines you've had are not nature. The cereal you eat at breakfast is not nature. Your school is not nature. Your car is not nature.

Nothing is nature anymore. It is foolish to ban things because they aren't nature because we'd have to ban everything. It isn't pretty that our societies and lives are so artificial, but its a fact of life you have to get used to and, barring nuclear war, it is irreversible.

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What if the first human clone had developmental problems. 20 years later we find him in the hospital with cancer. We cant clone him again, because he obviously didnt work in the first place. We cant give him another organ, because the cells throughout his entire body, are replicating too fast.

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We have to make sure the technology is safe before using it. It has to be as safe as, say, cars.

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Cloning humans is not a good thing. We consider it for our own well being, not the life we're attempting to create. And by bringing something into this world, that is an exact duplication of us, and not having the same consideration for it as we do ourselves, will result in our own distruction.

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I will treat clones with the exact same consideration I treat other humans. Those who don't treat clones the same should be tried and punished.

Note: I am not arguing cloning humans is good. I say, apart from the current imperfection of the technology, it is not particularly bad.

Sigh, angelfire..you waste my time...


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Cloning is a bad thing. Assuming there was a god, then us creating entire human beings would take creation out of Gods hands.
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"There is no spiritual difference between making a man with your mind and making a man with you dick.

Both are fundamentally (wo)man-made."


Your not making a man, your making a replication of someone who already exists. You also clone their mental capabilites although that's subject to change. The difference is, that a "spirit", as you so eliquently put... is not man made. And if it is placed there( by whatever power) from the dick birth, then it is so... that spirit is obtained by dick birth. Assuming a spirit is given by creation maintained by us, is egotism at its worst. (cloning)



"Identical twins have souls. Therefore, clones have souls."

Identical twins arent clones...their dick birth.


"I agree that it's currently unsafe, as it is new technology. This should ease with time."

We cant fully control something that has an ability to make concious choices..on its own.


"They are the same as us. If they aren't different, how can they be inferior? Only the ignorant will believe this, if the government educates them then the ignorant will be a small minority."

Because this great country of ours was founded on God, many of us, more so, will see these clones as inferior. They we're not created by dick birth, and will have no traditional spirit. According to many.

"The countless vaccines you've had are not nature. The cereal you eat at breakfast is not nature. Your school is not nature. Your car is not nature.

Nothing is nature anymore. It is foolish to ban things because they aren't nature because we'd have to ban everything. It isn't pretty that our societies and lives are so artificial, but its a fact of life you have to get used to and, barring nuclear war, it is irreversible."


Im not banning anything, i stated that all of this is one thing. But cloning ourselves tampers with the source of all. This isnt about parking lots, or war, cereal..or vacines. I agree with stem cell research and organ cloning..but not human cloning. Its typical human nature to assume we can handle this type of thing. This is a person we're creating. We become mass producable. Birth will no longer be celebrated or needed. That to say "if" this works.


"We have to make sure the technology is safe before using it. It has to be as safe as, say, cars."


Cars arent 100% reliable. Modifying a car and cloning a human are two different things


"I will treat clones with the exact same consideration I treat other humans. Those who don't treat clones the same should be tried and punished."

Not everyone is as open as you are.

i'll be back to sum this up later. i g2g.

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Your not making a man, your making a replication of someone who already exists.

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Identical twins are not replicas are each other. They are both completely seperate individuals.

A man and his clone are both as fully human as a pair of identical twins. Explain why you believe a clone is a not a man, but a twin is.

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that spirit is obtained by dick birth.

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You don't know that, that's question of religion. Frankly, I see no reason why a spirit can only come from my testicles. Regardless, its a religious question and does not concern secular people.

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Identical twins arent clones...their dick birth.

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I've explained how it makes no difference, to atheist folk, anyway.

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We cant fully control something that has an ability to make concious choices..on its own.

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We can't control ordinary humans either. Are you saying sex should be banned?

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Cars arent 100% reliable. Modifying a car and cloning a human are two different things

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Both are questions of life and death. That's what I mean by reliability.

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Not everyone is as open as you are.

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Saying clones shouldn't exist because there are anti-clone people is like saying there shouldn't be any blacks in America because there are racists.

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"Identical twins are not replicas are each other."
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I never said they were...i said a clone was a replica.


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"They are both completely seperate individuals" (twins)
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Thankyou angelfire, i already stated this...



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"A man and his clone are both as fully human as a pair of identical twins."
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yes, physically they are. while one is dick birth and the other is not. The twins are both dick birth. Twins arent the same as a man and his clone.


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"Explain why you believe a clone is a not a man, but a twin is."
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Its not the physical "man". Its the greater power controversy.
We cant be sure that they are "man" like us. But we can replicate our own physical and mental capabilities. All we know is we are dick birth, and clones are not. Clones are creations of man. No matter how similar they are to us, we made them.(replicated/duplicated)



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"You don't know that, that's question of religion. Frankly, I see no reason why a spirit can only come from my testicles. Regardless, its a religious question and does not concern secular people."
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Well, since this is the country that's developing cloning,and once again, was founded on religion, Then the question would most definatley concern us.


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"I've explained how it makes no difference, to atheist folk, anyway."
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Yes you have, and now we're just bickering back and forth.
atheists make up a small percent of this country.


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"We can't control ordinary humans either. Are you saying sex should be banned?"
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I meant, this creation of ours is as free as us. To kill, to rob..to think. To do as much damage if not more. Because not being concieved by the "same powers" as the rest of the world, can leave a big chip on a "persons" shoulder.


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"Both are questions of life and death. That's what I mean by reliability."
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But both arent tools that we utilize. You cant clone a human being just to test out your equipment. You dont do trial runs on "human" life.

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"Saying clones shouldn't exist because there are anti-clone people is like saying there shouldn't be any blacks in America because there are racists."
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No its not. Blacks are dick birth. I was saying there shouldnt be clones, because its immoral. and I was presenting other issues that might come up with the creation of clones.

In order to get your equipment reliable, you have to test it. We can test-clone different parts of the human body. but no matter how succesful that is, we can never be 100% sure its good enough for an entire human being.



The difference between clones and human beings, is that they arent concieved by us. We do not give traditional birth to clones. Instead, they're a project (at this point). Cells on an observation table. Indeed, cells of our own. But do not thrive off of us, like a traditional infant in the woom*. This is why we can draw a line between clones and us. Its unnatural... Not a worldly unnatural..like vaccines or cereal. but a human body unnatural, cloning will have a direct effect on the chemical make up of our bodies. When i say "our", im refering to the human race. and if we consider clones to be of that race, then our chemical make-up and the way in which we're concieved will redefine the human race. We are effected genetically.
What if we allowed clones and traditional people to have intercourse ? This opens a world of problems. If that clone is not perfect, and it gets it on with a dick baby...then their could be serious evolutionary problems. We dont know about God, or if we have a spirit or soul inside us...we cant be sure that we're not making drones. We want to get it down to the cell..perfect clone. because if it isnt then we've failed. And its not human.

By creating something exactly as we are..down to the cell, then apparently we are willing to risk its death. And if its considered a human as us...then i suppose that would be wrong. Unlawful even. If its an identical clone, then it would be human. If it is...then are we really willing to risk its end?


Everyone in the world at this point, is concieved the same way. Birth from a mother. Clones will always be a minority because of this. If we looked passed that, and allowed them to live among us, then they should be as compatible as us. Perfect clones. No falling apart and sprouting random limbs in a couple years. But perfect and exactly like us. Even then, we'd still have the God argument. Are these beings permitted through the gates of heaven the same way that we are?



Its easy for agnostics and athiests to agree with cloning. But since we have the enduring myth of God..cloning just doesnt seem to be in the cards.

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yes, physically they are. while one is dick birth and the other is not. The twins are both dick birth. Twins arent the same as a man and his clone.

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No friggin difference. There is no physical difference. Perhaps there is a spiritual one in certain belief systems, but I don't believe there is and in any case you have no right to force your religious beliefs on me.

The government does not have the right to stop me doing something, like cloning, because of religious differences.

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Well, since this is the country that's developing cloning,and once again, was founded on religion, Then the question would most definatley concern us.

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No it was not founded on religion. Some deist principles are somewhat mentioned in the Constitution that's all. Seperation of Church and State is explicitly mentioned however. That means, you cannot enforce your policy on me if its legitimised by religion.

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Yes you have, and now we're just bickering back and forth.
atheists make up a small percent of this country.

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Do you believe in seperation of Church and State?

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Because not being concieved by the "same powers" as the rest of the world, can leave a big chip on a "persons" shoulder.

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Whatever, being born of an interracial marriage can lead to being straddled between two communities and leave a 'a big chip' on that person's shoulder. You're being too speculative.

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But both arent tools that we utilize. You cant clone a human being just to test out your equipment. You dont do trial runs on "human" life.

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Did I say we could experiment with them? I didn't. I am not arguing cloning is good, I am arguing it isn't bad.

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No its not. Blacks are dick birth. I was saying there shouldnt be clones, because its immoral. and I was presenting other issues that might come up with the creation of clones.

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No, you said there shouldn't be clones because lots of people aren't as "open-minded as I am". Guess what, lots of people aren't open-minded about blacks, but that's not a reason to ban them.

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In order to get your equipment reliable, you have to test it. We can test-clone different parts of the human body. but no matter how succesful that is, we can never be 100% sure its good enough for an entire human being.

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Well, we can test it cloning pigs and chimps to see. Remember, even dick birth can have birth defects, so once cloning becomes as reliable as dick birth, I think its not immoral.

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and if we consider clones to be of that race, then our chemical make-up and the way in which we're concieved will redefine the human race. We are effected genetically.

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No we aren't. they have the same genes as us, hence they don't affect our gene pool

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By creating something exactly as we are..down to the cell, then apparently we are willing to risk its death.

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First of all, a clone is NOT IDENTICAL DOWN TO THE CELL to the person its a clone of. Its genetically identical, no more. Secondly, we aren't willing to risk its death. Or at least, no more willing than we are willing to risk death through dick birth.

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No falling apart and sprouting random limbs in a couple years. But perfect and exactly like us. Even then, we'd still have the God argument. Are these beings permitted through the gates of heaven the same way that we are?

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Seperation of Church and State. You cannot force your God on me, democracy is not theocracy by a majority.

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Its easy for agnostics and athiests to agree with cloning. But since we have the enduring myth of God..cloning just doesnt seem to be in the cards.

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So we agree it boils down to religion? And it boils down to you forcing your religion on me.

Im going to stop this quote thing, because it makes our posts ridiculously long.

Physically, there is no difference your right. The conception is the only difference. If this country was not founded on religion, then explain the pledge of allegiance. Or the engraving of "In God We Trust" on American currency.
Atheists make up, a "small" percent of this country. I stand by that. Do i believe in seperation of Church and State? Well, that depends. I might, but it doesnt bother me that our money says "in god we trust." You claim im being "too" speculative? Its cloning. A human life...how can we afford to be any less speculative? And once again, in an interracial relationship..both parties are concieved the same way. I understand you take a nuetral stand on this topic. No, i didnt say that cloning was bad "solely" because people arent as open as you. If you went back to read what i was saying..you would understand this. I see your point, if it becomes as reliable as dick birth. I retract my gene and cell statement. I'll edit. "By cloning something down to the genes, are we willing to risk its end?" My "genetic make-up" was a stupid thing to say, i knew i would eat those words.

Im not forcing religion on you. Im stating, regardless of the force i put on you, that religion is going to sway our ability to clone in this country. Religion plays a major role in our country. Yes..we do agree that it boils down to religion, and regardless if you believe it our not, it will be taken into consideration before cloning is permitted.


Theres no forcing religion when its already been imposed.

America's motto is "In God we Trust", it wasn't always like that. That was added much later, America's first motto was "E pluribus unum" and it is written, explicitly, that the United States should seperate church and state. The Religious Right has perverted America's heritage, that is, the principles of the Enlightenment.

"Theres no forcing religion when its already been imposed."
That's like saying Communism wasn't forced on in the Soviet Union because it had already been imposed.

If you deny me the possibilty of cloning myself, or someone else with their consent, you are forcing your religion on me.

..you cant force religion thats already been imposed.


its doesnt matter what its "like" saying...its the truth.

And religion, today, contributes much to our society. Unfortunately for you and other atheists, it is an obstacle for cloning permissions.

You make a valid point. But religion is in the way of your possibility of making a clone.

I cant argue my point giving solid evidence. because i feel it is morally wrong to clone.

You on the other hand, arent pro-clone, or no-clone . I do appreciate you stating facts and presenting proof that i may and even are incorrect. But since you have no opinion in the matter, you arent really against what im saying.

Thank you for bringing much to my attention.

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its doesnt matter what its "like" saying...its the truth.

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No its not, its gibberish. Your religion is being forced on me. That is evil and I would fight to topple any government who attempted such barbaric practices on me.

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You on the other hand, arent pro-clone, or no-clone . I do appreciate you stating facts and presenting proof that i may and even are incorrect. But since you have no opinion in the matter, you arent really against what im saying.

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Well, I wouldn't go that far. What it means is that if someone were to show that cloning would benefit society, then I would support him.

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I cant argue my point giving solid evidence. because i feel it is morally wrong to clone.

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Well, if its a question of religion, you won't find evidence. It becomes a question of faith, there is nothing in the material world, nothing 'solid' which can back up faith.

But, I don't think its right for government to enforce anything on anyone because of faith.

Ha.

That was the "truth." That religion is being forced on you, its already been imposed. Its already being forced. So you cant say that you wont have anything forced on you, because it already has been. So your pro-clone? Which are you. I CAN go that far, because your only going to be for, or against.. if it helps or doesnt help society. Since cloning hasnt happened, you dont know which side to take.

Its not a question of religion. My opinion is that cloning is wrong, and i've given many reasons as to why i feel its wrong. I've also stated how religion can present a problem for cloning.

regardless if you think its wrong, religion is apparently going to contribute to our permissions to clone. Maybe its unfortunate, maybe it isnt. But cloning doesnt seem to be in the cards. Im sorry that faith is preventing you from creating a clone. You'll just have to resort to alternate means of reproduction.. such as sex.

95% of your arguments have been assertions that dick birth is fundamentally different from cloning. This is just not scientifically backed up. Though it might be religiously backed up.

Secondly, maybe America is a theocracy, in that case I won't live there, I will live in a civilized country.

Well, there is a difference between clones and dick birth babies, obviously the way they're created.

Thats scientific. Although physically the same, they arent born the same way.