Misrepresentation - Page 5

Indeed we cannot beleive all that we are told, in the past it was restricted info and truth. Now it seems that the mass media holds a huge grasp on society and sets the focus of things and can obscure the truth through sensationalism, deception and obscurement.

As I am sitting here thinking about it I realized that even when I was a child I never really though of GOD as a human being but as a spirit. So how did man (Christ) become raised (elevated) to Godhood?

cturtle - I don't know how God could have ever become a man and still keep everything working. How can God even die. Father Fox who was a Catholic priest, but was banished from the church had a good theory about all that. I have his book, but haven't read it yet. He calls it Christ consciousness, claiming that's what Jesus had and we should strive for.

I R Me - I learned the truth about columbus just a couple years age. When you study history, boy it ain't nothing like the story book or TV - that's for sure. It's a shame. I hope the internet will save us from that.

okcitykid said:

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I don't know how God could have ever become a man and still keep everything working. How can God even die.

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Well, the biblical view of Christ says that he was both God and Man. He showed that he had the characteristics of diety by showing all his amazing signs. He had controll over disease, control over creation and earth (turned water into wine, halted the storm). These all point to his diety.

But, considering that God was also the creator of everything except himself (i.e. he is eternal, a non-created creator), we can draw the conclusion that he is also the creator of death. Being the creator over death means that he has power and control over it. So why should it be so hard for a diety who created death, to overcome it?

I know the beliefs - but I don't believe them. More and more I am convinced that Jesus was a very special person but he was not God. But I know you believe that and it is important to you, it is the basis of your religion. God suffered just like us and made himself a sacrifice for our misgivings to pay the price.

I don't belief that - But thank you for sharing.

This is what I believe: Jesus was a wonderful person who was predestined and did show us the way - if we follow we will get there. That's what I believe. Why was Jesus so wonderful - he was our older brother. He is what we will become if we follow.

Sorry to say it, but you can't pick or choose your reality.

okcitykid said:

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This is what I believe: Jesus was a wonderful person who was predestined and did show us the way - if we follow we will get there. That's what I believe. Why was Jesus so wonderful - he was our older brother. He is what we will become if we follow.

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I can't say it isn't your perogative to believe what you believe, but I can say with validity that you can't pick and choose your own reality. People can say a million-and-one different things about Jesus. But the pure fact is that he is what he was in the past. You can't change the past. There are many writings about Jesus, and many of them say things that contradict the others. You can't just pick and choose which is telling the truth and which isn't. If you trust some of the Bible to say Jesus is here to show us the way, why not trust the rest about what he said also? The Bible doesn't contradict itself on matters of Jesus, and gives valid testimony for it's own reliability. But, you can only learn these things if you search for the information.

If you believe Jesus said we would become like him when we die, why not believe him when he said that he was God? Why not believe that he said HE was the only way (read the parable of the shepherd and his flock, John chapter 10)? Why not believe his statements about Heaven AND Hell. His teaching completely disallows reincarnation.

I make these points because you can't gain knowledge about the supernatural/life after death/God by picking and choosing only what YOU think is correct. Sure, all signs point to A god. Only some try to point to THE god. And some point to many. Is there reason to believe all of them? If there isn't, why is there reason to believe a little bit of everything? You cannot prove that out of every human being that has existed--out of all that have made claims to revelation from deity--that no one has the truth about supernatural reality.

People live in a truthful, fact filled world. Somebody has to be right, that is, if someone has actually had a revelation from God.

Why do you believe the way you do? Why can't Jesus be all of what he said he was? Why does he have to be what you pick and choose him to be?

Strongclad - Why are you doing this?

So you haven't choosen to believe what you believe?

The Pharisees accused Jesus of the very same thing and they couldn't prove it - I could quote you a verse where Jesus tells us we are gods.

You believe what you believe, but just because you believe it, it doesn't make it true. You only believe it is true. Just because someone else does not agree does not mean they are wrong. Strongclad - we will see the truth at the end and I bet we'll both be surprised. But I won't be too surprised, because I already know that I don't know, it won't be too big of a shock for me, and I'm not worried about it.

God will take me as if I were a ball of clay and make me unto himself. This is what I was told in a dream. But thanks for trying Strongclad.

I am "doing this" and asking all these questions because I want to see why people choose to believe in anything they want without thinking it through thoroughly enough. I don't say that to sound egotistical, but you got to figure, not everyone is right in what they believe spiritually because there are many different beliefs.

Answer me this; if there are eternal consequences for putting faith in the wrong things, do you think it should matter what we believe in?

I myself would assume that you would be worried about eternal consequences, being you are one who claims not to know. But time after time you prove my assumptions wrong. You blatantly claim that you are not worried. Many people claim many different things. I claim and believe that there is a Hell as a consequence for sinners. But I only believe that those who do not believe in Jesus as the Savior will be going there. That's what Christ claimed, and there's good reason to heed such a warning. I mean, jeez! nobody wants to go to hell if there really is one. So wouldn't it be logical to find out how truthful Jesus claims are?

I'm not saying that you should just take my word for it. I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask questions to find out whether or not any other faith is correct. All I'm saying is that we should look before we leap--not a subjective look, but an objective one that gives assurance. And it seems to me that most people don't do that.

My beliefs are grounded and unwaivering. I don't know why you keep questioning that. I believe all of 1 Corinthians 10, especially the part that says..."Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day acording to the Scriptures,..."

okcitykid said:

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The Pharisees accused Jesus of the very same thing and they couldn't prove it - I could quote you a verse where Jesus tells us we are gods.

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I'm not for sure what you are saying here by mentioning the Pharisees and quoting a verse. That verse comes from John 10:34. Did you read the parable that I mentioned to you earlier in my last post? It also comes from John 10.

Even though I have no clue as to what you are getting at with this verse, I know you are ripping it out of it's context so it will adhere to your own belief. You might want to read it again, and this time read it in context with the rest of the chapter so you will get the intended meaning from it. Here is part of it:

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33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

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That verse you quote--the same one I underlined--comes from Psalm 82:6, where in verse 7 God passes judgement on those he is talking to. Maybe you should read that whole Psalm also so you will understand it's context.

Jesus is quoting this Psalm to justify what he says about himself. He is not telling the Pharisees (or the people of this age) that they are gods. Scripture--or any statement made by any person for that matter--cannot mean what it was never meant to mean. It only means what the speaker intended it to mean. It is clear as to what Jesus meant, only if you read it within the context of the entire situation. This is the reason why I make a big deal about things. Although it may be your perogative to not believe everything Jesus or anyone else has said, it is unreasonable to believe Jesus when he says "you are gods" and disbelieve him when he says "anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

I'm just saying that you cannot pick and choose what you believe without a valid reason, and still feel secure that you're not going to meet your doom in the end. Many people have dreams. And they claim a wide variety of ultimate truths from those dreams. IF, and I only mean IF, if I had a dream that said Jesus was the only way to heaven and that disbelief is the way to hell, can you prove to me that I'm wrong? Can you prove to me that your dream is any more right? Dreams don't prove a thing because they are way too subjective. Why not look at what we've got on our sides in reality?

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I don't say that to sound egotistical, but you got to figure, not everyone is right in what they believe spiritually because there are many different beliefs.

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Hmm . . . Just what does it mean to you?
As you say Okcity is using it out of context?

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Even though I have no clue as to what you are getting at with this verse, I know you are ripping it out of it's context so it will adhere to your own belief. You might want to read it again, and this time read it in context with the rest of the chapter so you will get the intended meaning from it.

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It is clear as to what Jesus meant, only if you read it within the context of the entire situation.

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Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

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But then it may be more like what that mean to those whom He spake?

I say I don't know for sure. I do know what you believe, I used to believe it. If it helps you. I will tell my whole story.

I have been baptized four times. I don't know how many alter calls, confessed before the congregation, said that special prayer (sinners prayer), witnessed to prove my faith from Mormon to Catholic from Berian to Baptist. Some believe that once your saved your always saved and others believe that you can loose your salvation, it all depends on whether you have faith or works, a goat or sheep, fruits or not. I don't know why, but I just had to be saved and was never really sure if I ever was, and I searched and studied and prayed. Having hope that I finally found the true church and was a member of it and saved for sure to finding it to be false and finding myself in dis pare again off into another search.

One day, it was like a light bulb went off in my head, "Why must I be saved? Who condemned me? God created me so that if I die I will go to hell for eternity because I was born? I had nothing to do with what Adam and Eve did, I didn't choose to be born, why am I condemned?" Realizing how crazy it all sounded I decided maybe I didn't understand and decided that I would stop believing in everything except God, because I new there was a God because I believed in nature, only God could create that. I would study and I would not let any one teach me anything, I would study for my self and find the answers on my own. After five years of studying I thought once again I found the truth. The Gnostics - they had the right idea. Our bodies were created by the false god to trap and control our true essence, our soul, created by the true God, but Jesus proved to be stronger and led the way. It made a lot of since. Unfortunitly, most of the Gnostic scriptures have been destroyed, and if you want to follow the Gnostics, you have to pick and choose because there are only fragments left behind. I was feeling pretty secure once again, I had a church, a belief, a religion, then I had this dream. A voice that simply said, "It is true that the false god created the body, but it is also true that the false god created the soul, however God takes you as if you were a ball of clay and makes you unto himself, and this takes time." That was the dream, I didn't see a thing, just a voice and one small sentence. That's all I know for sure. I don't know who the false god is, why he created us, or who the true God is and how the true God is going to remake us like a ball of clay unto himself. I don't know, its all guess work.

So - I am not worried about going to hell, it don't matter what I believe, if I'm wrong, God will make it right as He reshapes me. My father told me that I have been deceived by Satan. My father died believing that. You can believe what you like. Don't matter to me none.

Well, how do you know that your dream is telling you the truth?

cturtle asked:

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Hmm . . . Just what does it mean to you?
As you say Okcity is using it out of context?

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Well, in truth, it could only have meaning for himself and those he had originally spoken to. And as we can see from the passage, Jesus was speaking to the Jews. They were accusing him of blaspheming by claiming to be God, and they had intent to stone him.

Jesus quotes this passage of scripture to defend himself from the Jews. He throws it right back in their faces by saying, "hey, Scripture says we are called gods by God himself! And you all believe the Scriptures yourselves! So why accuse me of claiming to be God if that is what I am? Yet don't believe me, believe the miracles!"

In my personal opinion, this is the idea portrayed from this passage, and doesn't say anything else otherwise. I don't really see any principles we can gather from it to apply to our own lives, other than that we should believe what Jesus said because he backs up his claims with evidence (miracles).

I don't think we should run around misquoting this verse to claim we are gods, because this obviously wasn't the intention Jesus had when he said this. But many people tend to recklessly use scripture to defend their own notions of belief, even if they aren't Christian believers themselves. Non-Christians don't mind misquoting verses from the Bible to defend themselves from Christian believers to justify their own point of view. They don't mind doing this to others, but don't like it when it happens to them. If people tried to have a general knowledge of a belief before they try to dismantle it, people would be a lot better off. Missuse of scripture and misunderstandings of belief are what keep people from getting their facts straight.

Well Strongclad how do you know it's not. You decide to believe or not, it's called faith. If I needed more proof, a brick would have to fall from the sky and hit me in the head with a note attatched to it.

I believe what I believe, just because it is not what everyone else believes does not make it any more true.

I don't remember quoting any verses, why am I being accused of missquoting one. Are you sent from God to judge the proper quoting from the unproper quoting, Strongclad, what shall my judgement be?

Thank you Strongclad, I am not trying to start anything between you or OkCity but am honestly interested in your answer.

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In my personal opinion, this is the idea portrayed from this passage, and doesn't say anything else otherwise. I don't really see any principles we can gather from it to apply to our own lives, other than that we should believe what Jesus said because he backs up his claims with evidence (miracles).

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So are you saying that Jesus did not imply that He is the Son of God by these verses? Or that they (Jews) were mestaken by thinking they were descended from the (Gods) angels who came to earth and taking wifes from the daughters of mna?

All-in-all cturtle, when I read John 10, I find that Jesus not only implies that he is God's Son, but also flat out tells the Jews that he is (v. 36), and uses verifiable evidence (miracles he has done, v.38) to reveal that truth. Although we cannot verify the miracles today -- unless we go back in time and witness them ourselves -- this is what Jesus used at that point in time to back up his claims. So, he did say he was God's Son.

I don' t think that the Jews thought they were descendents of gods or angels. But because they knew the Jewish traditions and the Law in scripture, Jesus knew they would understand when he quoted Psalm 82:6: "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?".

I don't understand what you mean about "taking wifes from the daughters of mna," though. I hope my thoughts kind of explain what I think about this passage. If it seems as if I don't explain myself very well, let me know. I'd be glad to restate myself.

okcitykid said:

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I don't remember quoting any verses, why am I being accused of missquoting one.

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I implied that you were about to quote a verse because you would have if I asked for it. Didn't you say this earlier?

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I could quote you a verse where Jesus tells us we are gods.

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